Rachael Maves: Hello everyone. You are listening to the Rachael Maves podcast and I am Rachael Maves, your host. Today, we are talking with Nadene Dermody. Nadene is an experienced educator and school administrator with a strong background in educational leadership. She currently serves as the principal of Monterey County Home Charter School, where she leads initiatives focused on personalized learning, academic equity, and student success. Nadene is passionate about creating inclusive educational environments that support all learners, especially those in non-traditional settings.

Nadene, thank you for joining me today.

Nadene Dermody: Thank you, Rachael. I'm very happy to be here and it's a pleasure meeting you finally.

Rachael Maves: Yeah, you well. I'm glad that this worked. Out.

Nadene Dermody: Me, too. Me, too.

Rachael Maves: So, as we jump in, Nadene, I love just the opportunity to hear: why education.

Nadene Dermody: You, I didn't choose education. I feel like it chose me. I started. I'm a visual and performing arts person. That's what took me to college, or led me on the college pathway. My undergrad is actually in music education.

And what happened around. My third year in college, I was involved in a preparatory program, which is a program in a music department that provides private lessons to private music lessons to students at a very affordable cost for families.

Rachael Maves: Oh, that's great.

Nadene Dermody: And it was within that experience that I really enjoyed working with kids, especially in the music world. And so I did a lot of lessons and teachings and then that kind of put me on the trajectory of music education. So that's what my undergrad is in. And then, I feel like the teaching part of my bachelor's degree found me through that platform. And so here I am, ending my 33rd year in a row with no breaks in.

Rachael Maves: That's amazing.

Nadene Dermody: Isn't that crazy? I know. I'm a glutton for punishment. It's, It's not. So 33 years.

Rachael Maves: Wow.

Nadene Dermody: That Don't remind me, Rachael. I know. Year 34 started yesterday. Actually, July 1st was the start of the new fiscal year.

Rachael Maves: I so, being that's a just a wonderful, robust career in education, nating, and congratulations on that. I am just curious, because you've had that trajectory and you've seen a. Lot. What do you feel like have been the most pivotal points in education in your career that have really stood out to?

Nadene Dermody: Wow, that is a loaded question. I think I it's not so much pivotal as I feel like it's a circle. The trends continue to just go around and when you stay in our profession long enough, pretty soon we circle back to something. That we did 20 years ago. Let's just take phonics as an example. We got away for, yes, we got away from teaching phonics and remember the whole language years, and then we're discovering kids can't read and we, I think to myself, yes, because they don't know their letter sounds, and that's how we start to learn how to.

So, it's not so much. I would say that I feel like there's been a pivotal moment, is that it's a it's a constant circle of, and it's one of the things in education that is irritating to me is that we are trendy in this nation. We get on a trend and then we try it for five years, six years, seven years, and then we drop it because we think it's not working, rather than just adjusting the trend that we're. And I think if we could, at some point in time, circle back to this is what we need to do, because math is going to be the next challenge in our nation. Math is a an achievement crisis in this country. Yeah.

And until we figure out that, you know, basic skill, I mean, I'm not a math teacher, but, you know, without basic skills, our kids can't achieve in math. And so, we can't have these students that are sixth, seventh, eth, and ninth graders without a basic foundation in math and just keep pushing them forward. So, yeah, I don't feel I mean, again, I don't think I there's a pivotal moment for me is that I just I've been in it long enough now that I see the trends and the circling back and you know, who knows what will be next, but.

Rachael Maves: Yeah. Yeah. No, I agree with that. I was also thinking, you know, you're coming from a unique background in a home charter school and we do have some listeners that aren't necessarily in the education sector. Can you tell us just a little bit about what a home charter school is and how it differs from a district, and would love just to get your thoughts on that?

Nadene Dermody: Absolutely. We are a dependent charter school under the. Our authorizer is the Monterey County Office of Education. And what we're? All of our students are independent study students. We offer two models within that independent study platform.

One is a homeschooling model. All of our students in transitional kindergarten through 12 can do that model. And that's where the parent really wants to be directly involved in their child's. Seeing their students progress, where they sit academically, are they making improvement, are they making growth, you know, where are they starting? We monitor that very closely. And then we have a traditional independent study pathway for students who are in grades 9 through 12.

Mhm. I think in our model right now for independent study,. We are actually have a little bit of an increase in enrollment, while California schools are struggling with, you know, the decline enroll, declining enrollment. Ours is going up. And I think the trend with that increase enrollment is really around. One of the first components would be just the social emotional crisis for the lack of a better way to describe it going on with students.

Many of our students come to us because they're struggling with a mental health issue, specifically anxiety and depression. And that just walking into a traditional school site that may have 2,000 kids on a campus for high schoolers, or even if it's a small school setting, or just walking into a classroom where you're one of 25 students, it's overwhelming for them and crushing and they're abil. They're really struggling with the ability to be able to function in that. The second reason that we get a lot of, we have a lot of interest right now is school safety. To be honest with you, parents and students are very scared of violence that could happen on site, even though I mean it's, it's it's in the, it feels like it's in the news all the time. The school settings and something that.

Whether it's a violent intruder or maybe, or an intruder of any kind, but school safety. And then the third reason is for us is bullying and harassment.

Rachael Maves: Interesting.

Nadene Dermody: A lot of our students come to us because they have been victims of bully, being bullied or harassed, and just aren't comfortable going to school. So our model then provides a semi-flexible environment for those students in a much more one-to-one. Yeah. Our students meet with teachers in a one-to-one for an hour each week and then have access to other levels of academic intervention, some site based classes as well as social, emotional, Yeah.

Rachael Maves: I mean that's great. Talk about like a niche that really supports a unique need that kids have in some of those settings.

Nadene Dermody: And we're the only in Monterey County. For us, we're the only program that provides this direct oversight of parents who want to homeschool their children. Yeah. Yeah. And that I think that's a that's a very valuable program in this county and something that our authorizer, our county office of education takes very. Seriously.

Yeah. Having a homeschool program like ours, where you're in communication with an LEA, versus a private school affidavit, looks very So, we're able to have oversight over those families who are seeking out a homeschooling. Parents can provide the instruction, but they have the coaching and the guidance and the oversight of an. Yeah.

Rachael Maves: Well, and I just love that there's so many different pathways for kids that need something that's not traditional to be successful. I know, you know, I have three daughters and my eldest now is 19, and when I first started having kids, I thought I could. I think I could homeschool. Like, I'm an educator, you know, then they'll be home with me and we can do all these fun. Things. And I'm not kidding, Nadene.

It took me like two months of trying to get her to sound out her words and I was like done. This is not for me. I am a high school teacher. I don't know what I was thinking. But being able to provide that support and resources for families, that is something that they want to do, for whatever reason it might be. And passionate about, but that they're not having to figure it out on their own.

And then also that layer of ju, like the traditional systems just not working. And so how do we be flexible and offer multiple. Pathways? I think that's wonderful.

Nadene Dermody: Yeah, I think the traditional system is it's it's it's growing in the numbers of the families it's not working for. Yeah, that's true. And the reality is COVID has triggered all of that. You know, even though we were sheltering in place in COVID f, many families came out of that liking that flexible model. Yeah. Or being able to have their students work at this time of the day or have help and support and going, and but of course, in we're.

We want to go back to education. Just how it was pre-COVID and it's not working at all. Chronic absenteeism is up. Families seeking out the hybrid or virtual options or an independent study model, like we have, I think, are really on the uprecrease, the increase right now.

Rachael Maves: Yeah, well, On that note, I'd love to hear, just from your lens and perspective, what are the one or two things that keep you up at night?

Nadene Dermody: Well, the first thing first, I'm up all night, most nights anyway. So, I spend a lot of time stumbling around, falling asleep for a couple hours, and then getting up and thinking about things and writing in my notebook.

Rachael Maves: But I think that sounds right. I think most leaders, I mean, I'll just say I think we're all worried.

Nadene Dermody: Some people are more apt to share that out loud, but I worry every night whether I made the right decisions. For moving forward with this program. Did I do enough? I mean, every day I'm busy all day and I leave the office with 25 things still left to do. Did I prioritize correctly for the needs of students and staff? I always feel like I worry that I could have done better.

That's really what I worry about. How could I do better for the students and the staff that I serve, but I worry also just about the state of our youth and where they are at this stage of their lives. And those of us, you know, I that,. You know, in my age group, we just had a lot more grit and determination. And I think it's so much harder for these kids right now in the world. And I worry about that.

What will happen to just humanity in general when these students get out into the workforce and you know you can't quit a job every time a boss gives you a directive? And you know how do we help and support them to get that back right. You can't just try something once, or you, when you try something once and fail, you have to try again and getting that sense of perseverance. It's just not there. And I worry about how they're going to get through their adult lives because.

Rachael Maves: You know, yeah, it's interesting that you bring that up, because it I do see almost like this kind of clash of the way that things have been or were done, you know, that are shifting and the mindset that's shifting, you know, like very few people today can say, "Yeah, this has been my career path for the last 34, four years this year. You know what I mean? Like there's there is this shift of try this out, try this out, try this out, try this out and trying to figure out where that landing place is. And I don't, and even then I'm not even sure that the landing place ends up being a landing. Place. And I, what I think where you know I find myself reflecting, Dean is it's so contrary to how I'm thinking about it and I wonder, you know, not so much in my mind right or wrong, as okay, if that's kind of the wave of where things are headed and that mentality is different, then how does our world shift and follow suit?

And what's going to change about some of those established structures that we've had in place, that now, with a new generation coming up that really does a lot differently? That what will the world look like? Because the I don't think it's going to be able to stay the. Same. You know what I mean?

Nadene Dermody: I don't think it will either, but we always are really slow making the shift.

Rachael Maves: [speaker uncertain] Yeah, that is 100%.

Nadene Dermody: [speaker uncertain] You know, I would say we're it's happening. So, I think about when social media first came out and we those of us, you know, who dabbled it a little bit. We didn't realize those photos were going to follow us for the rest of our lives out there in the world, you know, or whatever we said or remember on Facebook, where you'd put it, type in what you were thinking about that day. I mean, sometimes I'll have a memory pop up from 2009 and I'm like, "Oh, dear Lord, please don't let that come up on me on a Google search, you. Know? We didn't know how everybody's listening now is like googling your.

Well, we didn't realize that was going to We were slow to the social media party and what to do with that. So, when I think about when it first came out, schools, you know, at the time I was teaching and it was like a big lockdown. Teachers can't do this. We're banning this. Well, now every school district, you know, uses social media in some aspect to promote themselves.

Rachael Maves: Yeah, that's right.

Nadene Dermody: We're repeating the same pattern right now with AI. We're just like, not, we're pushing it away. The, you know, some of us that are a little more seasoned or older, not me. I love AI, but people are pushing it away. This is dangerous. Yeah.

So is social media. And if we don't address it now and how to use AI and teach our kids how to use it and navigate it a way that's useful tool for them and safe, we're just in this repetitive mode. So we're not a. We're not able to keep up with how fast things are moving anymore. And at what point in education are we going to shift that? Like we, you know, still want to hand out a couple of textbooks a day or whatever to kids and all the worksheets, packets of the.

Worksheets. Yeah. It just has gone from a ditto machine to, you know, downloading the PDF. So we're not and we're missing the points. The technology made me think of this, Rachael, not to get off the topic. But we're also missing the parts that our kids really don't know how we're making assumptions about this generation that they know how to do certain tasks or they have certain skills and they don't.

Typing is one of them. Yeah. They can use their thumbs very. But we're, we've made assumptions that they just know how to type on a keyboard efficiently. And the reality is that they don't. We used to have things like typing class, or remember, we used to send them to the computer lab 20 years ago.

Yeah. And the glass that they would put on so that you could see the keys. Yes. Yes. And you know, in order to perform well on any assessment platform, you have to be able to type efficiently. You have to know a keyboard.

So, you know, it's just another. We have to make sure. I don't know how we filter down. We're, you know, where we're making assumptions, but the kids really don't know this. Our students really don't know this, and they really need structured support and lessons and instruction on this. And then not to reference or, you know, do a plug on anything, but it really is true what John hates said.

It is the anxious. Generation. And if they can't do something correctly the first time, it's just this worry that everybody is better than they are, or and. Or they can't do something or they can't be successful. And you know, if I had my way, every cell phone in the world would be tossed into a volcano. I think it's the worst.

I think it's just horrible for adults. Think about I when, even as leaders, as you because the adult part of education as well, like we have to keep ourselves healthy and rested and going, which is really hard to do. We're so beyond accessible. Right. The first year I started teaching was in 1992. Like we, I wasn't carrying my a phone.

I didn't. My boss didn't have access to me all day. None of that. And now it's just 24/7, right? And you have to set up your own boundaries.

Rachael Maves: I was going to say, yeah. I mean, it really forces you to set up your own boundaries, and what that means and looks. Like. Yeah. Mhm.

Nadene Dermody: And I think you know that cell phone I would, smartphones, I don't like them and I am really bad at keeping an eye on mine. My friends remind me, my colleagues remind me, you know. Yeah.

Rachael Maves: So, as you think about, you mentioned two things that keep you up at Just the one, you know: are you doing enough and prioritizing the right thing? And then the other one: some of the mental health crisis that we're seeing with this group and generation coming through. What are two ways that we can move forward?

Nadene Dermody: I think one thing that we have to really address within school are the relationship pieces with students and making a connection. I, they, I just don't. It's not that those of us that work in schools aren't trying to make connections, but we're really having to draw it out of students. Yeah. We all know, in education, one adult, whether it's a teacher, administrator, classified SE, can make a enormous impact on a student and the trajectory for them for the rest of their lives. Yes, that's right.

And I so. I think you know the relationship piece, but also as educators, we have to be better about. Not. We have to kind of filter out. I don't like punitive actions on students is what I'm getting at. So, you know, I don't.

I think we have to kind of navigate a little bit with kids like we can let this go, you know, because this over here, the student just walking into the classroom was a big win today. Do I really need to, in the same day, go to this student and tell them they're missing 11 assignments? Yeah. Yeah. Can I start with? I'm really happy you're here.

Yeah, it's so great to see you in class. Jump in. Let's get started. Yeah, that's right. Yeah. And then at the end of the class or the end of the day, you can always circle back to the student, I'd love to touch base with you tomorrow.

Let's kind of see where you sit. So that relationship pieces. And I know I mean, since I've been in home charter, this is my just ended my third year in this job, but. When I first got here and even still it's a little bit there I'm working on shifting this culture. If I wanted to have a re-engagement meeting with a family if we have a student that's I would call or initiate a re-engagement meeting and that would be the student parent or guardian, myself and their independent study teacher and we just check in and say: how are you doing? We notice you haven't been here.

We notice you're struggling with attendance or work, and but what was happening is families weren't coming to them and as I to the some of the re-engagement meetings and when I started to drill down, they were. Scared. They were think. They think like the principal is going to be me or we're going to be in trouble. We're going to be in trouble. We're going to be suspended or we're going to be dropped from the program, versus we just care about you and want you to know we see you and how can we support you?

Yeah. Correct. Yes. So I think that's something that we have to get the relationship piece, and we have to really rethink the oldfashioned like our whole country was founded on. You know, being holier than thou, shall we say, and that hard work will get you. Can achieve your dreams.

It's not that simple anymore and it's not. You know, that's not going to happen.

Rachael Maves: It really that connection piece really resonates with me, Nadene. And you know, we, over the course of gosh, earlier this year, we had a number of students that came on and were guests on the podcast. And one of them, Timmy. She was talking about for her what the most important thing was and she brought that up of human connection. And she actually spoke about it at our summit. That was such an eye-opening time for her, it during co, to have had opportunities for that human connection, and then to feel like that was lost and the like.

How much then it leaves that gap of? Oh my gosh, this is so critically important and how do we do it even better than what we were doing before and what does that look like? So, yeah, I think that relationship piece truly is just the heart of educ And I don't see that ever going. Away.

Nadene Dermody: And I think our teacher preparatory programs will have to make a shift. You know, what as new PE teachers come into our profession, new people come in for teachers like we have to. We have to look at how there's so much emphasis on achievement and academic growth and there should be. We want our kids to achieve. Yeah. But I think our preparatory programs need to shift a little bit and credentiing programs to include maybe a little bit more comprehensive pieces around social, emotional wellness for students, human connection, how to build appropriate relationships with students.

And those mental health piece and school safety. Yeah. Right. And how we create that sense of community within the school. Yeah.

Rachael Maves: Well, this is our final question, Nadene, for our time together. I'm always excited about this one because I never know which direction it's gonna go with people.

Nadene Dermody: Oh god, it's so much pressure.

Rachael Maves: It is. It better be good. What question in education? Are we not asking that we should be?

Nadene Dermody: I ask myself, are students really the focus of education? When I see the amount of profit made in our system of education, I just it makes me sad and it makes me wonder: is it really the focus? And I just you can look at it from. I mean, students are my focus every day, but I have a lot of other aspects to handle that pull me away from that.

Rachael Maves: Yeah, that's very so, and you know we just talked about the state testing. You know, with some colleagues of mine, and if you have a test that no one's passing, is it the or is it the? Is it the student?

Nadene Dermody: [speaker uncertain] And there's a lot of money, there's a lot of big money in those companies that manage those tests. For. Us. So I worry about: is our focus really students, well-being and health and welfare and academic achievement, or is it about something you know that's back in the wings, that's putting money in everybody's pocket. I know we're supposed to be nonprofit, but you know there's a lot of business in school as well. So I think that.

If in making students our true, how do we do that? And I just question on if, is that really what we're doing every day? Yeah, we say it. Yeah.

Rachael Maves: Well, you know, the that question, you know, in and of itself, our students, the focus, I think, is an interesting one, and just the way that our system is structured, right? You know, begs some questions. Even just assessments aside, I, you know, having run state assessments, and then, you know, all that piece, I, you know, no offense,. None, none, non taken. Everybody has their view on and it's a hot topic. I understand that.

But I do think that and that's a question that has come up a few times on the podcast is: are the students really at the center of the things that we're doing? And if they were, would it look different? But yeah, I think that is one, especially after COVID, like you brought up earlier, Nadine, that continues to surface and I think is gaining more and more traction of. We've got. Something needs to shift here. Right.

So hopefully we're on the verge of that. Shift. I don't think I'll see it in the remainder of my career, but you know, I'm going to continue to study the course as much as possible and maximize every single day I'm at work, I, Yeah. Well, I love that. And maybe try to sleep. I don't know.

Nadene Dermody: Yeah.

Rachael Maves: Try to sleep. There you go. Well, thank you, Nadene, for your time today. It's just been an absolute pleasure.

Nadene Dermody: It's been wonderful to be here, Rachael, and thanks for having me on. I really appreciate it.

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This transcript was created from the episode's captions and lightly edited for readability. It may contain small errors; please refer to the audio for exact wording.