Rachael Maves: Hi everyone. You are listening to the Rachael Maves podcast and I'm Rachael Maves, your host. This podcast is part of the leadup to the upcoming measure what we value Summit scheduled for February 5th through 6 2025 in Fresno, California. The summit emphasizes honoring and amplifying student voices, fostering inclusive classrooms and equipping Educators with tools for impactful change. You can find more information on the Summit AT parsecsummit.com today. We are speaking with Mary Cochron.

Mary is a recognized leader in educational assessment and the founder of Metimur LLC, where she helped schools, districts and state Departments of Education transform their assessment practices to better dis serve students and Educators. With over 19 years of experience spanning classroom teaching, District leadership and state level assessment roles, Dr Cochron bring a unique blend of expertise, practicality and vision to the. Conversation around data and student growth. Her compassionate assessment framework emphasizes a people- centered, datadriven approach to measuring learning, one that moves beyond the traditional testing approaches to create actionable insights and meaningful outcomes. Mary, thank you for joining me today, and happy birthday, thank you. I feel honored that you would give up time to share it with me.

Mary Cochron: Well, it's, it's my pleasure, Rachael, and I'm just so. Excited about all the work that you and that Eugene and Baba tun have been doing at parac, that I'm this is a pleasure to spend this time with you today. So, yeah, you know we're education and assessment nerds when we're excited about these conversations and it fills our buckets.

Rachael Maves: So, true, yeah, so. We're. We're going to start off the way that we always do on the podcast and just give you an opportunity to share a little bit about your journey. What led you to your current role? Why education? Why assessments?

Mary Cochron: Yeah, so there is no little girl out there that says: someday I'll build tests, and that held true for me. Too. Actually I didn't. I wasn't on a pathway to go into education. I finished a degree in culture anthropology at Fresno State and kind of looked around and my mom, who was a teacher and administrator in Fresno Unified at the time, said: what are you gonna do with that? I didn't have a very.

Good answer, to be honest. So she said: hey, come, I think you should be a teacher. And I wasn't too convinced. But I listened to her and thankfully I did, and my first teaching experience was as being a substitute in her seventh grade world history class. Oh, my word, oh Rachael, I was Su. Either go really.

Well or really bad, right.

Rachael Maves: Well, yeah, that's either GNA, make her break a whole career path.

Mary Cochron: I was hooked. I absolutely hooked. I loved working with Junior High kids and shortly thereafter I found myself in my own seventh grade world history class by no accident. And I just Junior High kids are. Wonderful because they're just the. They're a beautiful expression of humanity because every day is a new day.

You know, problems are big, problems are little, problems are big. Today they're best friends, the next day they're mortal enemies. They're still little kids, but they're in that pushpull, you know self-actualization, and there were just so much fun and. So I loved that and through my work there, I've always really just followed, though, the short answer to your question of what was my path. I've just followed the really interesting work, things that just made me feel alive and felt like I could be giving my through the gift of my efforts and service and my. Talents to try to do something to make the place around me, wherever I found myself a better place when I leave.

Love that, and so I had a wonderful opportunity to go from. I had worked at Junior High, got to teach at my high school, Al the moer, which was a wonderful experience, and then I was. Kind of on this track to becoming an administrator and I got a call from Dave Calhoun and for people who know that name know how wonderful a man this is he's he just achieved a Lifetime Achievement Award from the work that he's done through with fres, unified and core, and so he called. Me and said, hey, we got this job. I'd love to have you come down to work with us in the research, evaluation and assessment office. And so I went and worked in REA and that was my first taste of assessment I was excited about like the evaluation and the research part always been super nerdy.

And I found myself right the beginnings of trying to unpack these new standards we had at the time Common Core. So I'm totally dating myself right and just fell in love with the process of how do we make those invisible cognitive processes and these ideas that happen in these kids' heads? How do we make that visible? Right that's. So that ended up. I, you know, kind of continued in, you know, deeper and deeper into this assessment world, ended up going to Portland Public Schools in Oregon, which is the largest school district in the state of Oregon, and ran the Statewide assessments there during the height.

I found myself in really fun places, Rachael. It was the height of the. Anti- testing movement in that Community and I came in mid year of and it was you know where, the you know the early Taste of politicizing Education, and so that was really trial by fire. But you know, what saved me was and what really helped me get through all of that was. That I knew what the tools were designed to do and so all of the other kind of misinformation and things that were floating around coming from all directions I just held through to you know, held course right and held true to what they were designed to do, what we were intending and how we were. Going to use it and what the options that parents and teachers had, and it was all about just sharing information with Clarity.

I often say Clarity is kindness but and that the work I did there got the attention of the department, the state department, Oregon, and so I've kind of. Been pulled along my career path a lot of ways, yeah. So they tapped me and said, hey, we need a director of assessment at the state and with what you've done, we'd love to have you here. So then I got to see a whole another level of Education, as you have right.

Rachael Maves: Yeah, and it really is, it's a whole. Different lens and Viewpoint and perspective. That I don't know what your experience was like, that I wasn't anticipating, but it was also like: oh, so many other things make sense now.

Mary Cochron: Oh, so true, every level comes with its own perspective and priorities. Right is yeah, absolutely, and they're all valuable. That's, that's the other thing. It's not that one is more. Valuable than the other. They all have a role and they work together.

I try to. I try to express it because you know, when I moov from classroom to like School level right, that was one school to District level, that was another shift. You experienced that as well, I know and I. Don't know if you experienced this as well. I was kind of going to the dark side every time. I made these jumps like, yeah, and now the private sector.

I that was when I hear the most like welcome to the dark side. I have heard it every way with: from the state department into a nonprofit private sector, like welcome to the dark. Side was a part of a merger and acquisition that went from nonprofit to for-profit. Hey, here's some more. And all the while working in assessment which, yeah, honestly, there were years I didn't tell people when I traveled and you, the, you know, You' sit, you know, in an airplane, oh, hello, oh, what do? You do educational research.

Honestly it was, it wasn't. It wasn't something I shared freely because I wasn't always prepared to have the conversations, and I have to say that's been a huge growth for me and my own just kind of personal experience of owning, being an assessment professional and taking on those conversations and seeing every. Single opportunity as a way to share information that is too valuable. Everyone needs to have parents, teachers, School level. Everyone needs to have this information that I've spent, oh gosh, over a decade of really being deep in assessment, so anyway, yeah, that's kind of that's really how I've I've progressed that there wasn't a pathway. I've also taken a lot of.

Positions because I've been drawn to the really interesting work and exciting work and oh, I get to work with you guys now or you know, when I was in Portland Public Schools I got to work with, like, Rick stens.

Rachael Maves: That's amazing. I was just, I was just like this fan girl in the front row of this. Classroom watching one of my research Idol and I just like, oh, I could touch him, you know, but they were not going to.

Mary Cochron: No, I did not. No, I did not. But being able to work with him and like Jim poam and Martha thurlo and you know, working with States and then move. Working with a lot of States. When I went to American institutes for research in assessment and worked with States from the vendor side and then State, and with them I got to you know, see how similar and how unique every state is. Yeah, and it's just, it's just wonderful people all around.

And then I get to you know, meet my Idols. Every one once in a while and like Christina Schneider and Dan Lewis and Kristen huff and like all these really nerdy Idols I have. But taking all of that about two years ago, it was really. It was Co that was the big eye opener for me. Not that it not that it changed things so much as it. Amplified and accelerated change.

That was already happening, yeah, and I became a stepmom in 2020.

Mary Cochron: [speaker uncertain] Oh, congratulations, thanks, yeah, and that really shifted my world and watching what the kids were experiencing firsthand in a new way. During this time of you know, the state departments were paralyzed in a lot of ways. I and the districts were. Were. The schools and districts were kind of floundering, and I was I. It's time for me to work with schools and districts again, and that's why I established Metimur to work with schools and districts again, to bring all of this knowledge about assessment to the schools and districts so that they can really put it into place and put.

Assessment back into its place. Yeah, oh, wow that, yeah, so that's kind of how my journey progress. That was a little over two years ago. I've been doing a lot of writing and I'll be coming out with my book on a compassionate assessment framework, which is really a culmination of my career and work up to this point and my understanding of how do we take all this. Really dry statistical ideas and Concepts, like you know, item response Theory that aren't necessarily explained well to practitioners and I think that's our responsibility as assessment professionals, as I do count myself one now, finally I own it.

Rachael Maves: That's aome, good for you and you should. I mean it is a place that I mean it's not going away, is we know from No Child Left Behind? I mean there are a. Lot of flaws in assessment 100%, And I think we would all acknowledge that. But it was also the first time that it shined light on things that really gave us Insight of at the local but then also at the state level where we were. I mean truly failing kids, yes, and so I see the importance and the necessity of.

Progression, which is why I'm so excited for the lens that you're bringing, Mary, and I'd love for you kind of touched on a little bit. But tell us a little bit about your keynote, because you're your session. You're going to be coming and you're going to be talking about humanizing measurement through the compassionate assessment for framework and how this approach can transform the. Way we assess learning better to reflect students experiences and growth. So can you just give us like a really quick highlevel overview of what that conversation will look like?

Mary Cochron: Yeah, absolutely so. I'm a big proponent of I don't tell about teaching, I do, so one it'll. I'm I do very interactive kinds of experiences. Any kind of presentation is as interactive as I can. Make it so. The first step really is to make sure that we're all having the same conversation, and so we'll go through and commonize our information, our language use, particularly around the word assessment, yeah, and then move into the four components that make up the framework, and when we attend to all four of these components with really high.

Leverage activities. Then we move toward what I call compassion assessment, because we can. It's it's really about and this, these words were selected with purpose compassion is beyond sympathy, it's beyond empathy, it's it's really to a point where you see something that you have to take action on, and I think that's where we're at. We have to take action and shift how. We're doing and engaging in assessing student learning and how we use the results that come from that. So we'll dive deep into the four components.

One is technical quality. We have to have that basic knowledge and understanding of how things are made. The second component is the environment, and that also includes like technology and why we see these strange kinds of. Artificial environmental decisions right when large scale, and why the environment matters in our classroom assessment and how we get what we get from the kids. So it's not just about big tests. I'm talking about assessment as a process.

Yeah, now that would be all well and good, and that's usually where a lot of assessment literacy ends, but it's not good. Enough for me. We got to talk about the people, and this is what I mean by humanizing it. So we, if we attend to the attitudes and beliefs of the adults around assessment, and that's your teachers, your administrators, your school leaders, anyone working with the kids, par, professionals, right, all of the folks and the parents and families, because all of. That is going to influence the fourth? Yes, that the student attitudes and beliefs.

And that's the. That's the fourth and final component, although I will tell you, I kind of go the other direction. I start with a student, I move into, like, the attitudes and beliefs of the adults, and then what does that do to that environment that is surrounding our. Kiddos. And then, what are those tools actually designed to do and what are their limitations, so that now we can say, okay, I see this landscape. What are the high leverage activities you can go into your classroom, into your school, into your District, whatever role you're in, and where are the areas I in this, when I organize it in these four buckets?

What? Can I do? What actions can I take to shift toward that compassion and the compassionate assessment? I think we can make it. I really think we can do it.

Rachael Maves: I do too, but I think it's going to require exactly what you're saying: conversations and engagement, the PO of the people. I it's just such a core component. So. Knowing our audience, Mary, and that it's going to be made up of school leaders, practitioners, can you give us like one tangible takeaway that they might be able to apply to their context? Not giving it all away, but just like maybe one little thing.

Mary Cochron: C can I give you more than one, sure, okay, well, one. I've already alluded. To. It's a shift in mindset. Assessment is a process. It's not just a bunch of tests or just datas or ranking or, you know, it's not numbers.

It's. It's a process of gathering information about where the student is in learning progressions. So now we need to talk about learning progressions? Right, it's, it's. It's a way to communicate to. Kids where they are in their own goals.

Okay, now we got to talk about goal setting totally different conversation, right? So it's really a shift in mindset that assessment is a larger process of gathering information about student progress and learning, not just a bunch of tests. Yeah, that's the first thing. The second thing is that understand that they're tools.

Rachael Maves: [speaker uncertain] That's right.

Mary Cochron: And when we talk again about tests now I'm talking about what performance tasks that you build in your classroom and you write your own rubric to the large scale test events that you have at the end of the year, every state Across the Nation right, they're all tools and no one tool can do it all. So. Know what it can do, one know what it can't do. Yeah, that's right. And then, last though, I really to share. So I was working with a few.

I was working with a group of teachers last week and I came in with: okay, we're going to, we're going to look at this data, we're going to talk about how you're going to go set. With your kids and you know this kind of midyear check-in and where they want to be, and this is what we're going to be doing and really quickly totally tossed my lesson plans out the door because I saw a brand new teacher who was in his first year and just drowning and so you know and. I said to him: we talk through what is his, what is his greatest like challenge right now. How do we help you? How do we rally around you? We've all been here, but it really came down to you.

He wasn't alone and that's that's the last thing I'd like to share with your listeners is that you're not alone. And struggling with trying to make sense of the information that's getting thrown at you, whether it's quantitative, whether it's whether it's your observations, whether it's the teachers coming and telling you things, as a school leader, that you get told in the hallway. You can't even go to the bathroom without some new piece of data being thrown at you, with or without context. That. You're not alone and that there's so many people every level I have worked with, every organization I've worked with there are so many really passionate, smart and gifted people that are all wanting the best for our students, and I think we just need to stop fighting with each other and work together because we're not alone. We've you've been in these situations.

I've. Been in these situations and there's a new day ahead for me where I'm going to have to reach out for help and call and support from my colleagues. I'm not alone either, but just remember that and I think it's hard to remember that sometimes mid year, if it can be very lonely in your own little. Four- wall classroom, right to be lonely in your office and as a leader. But we're not, you're not alone. So those are the things, the big takeaways, and I hope that also sheds some light on kind of how I look at things.

Rachael Maves: Yeah, I love it. So, as you think about, like, joining us at The. Summit in community. What are you most looking forward to?

Mary Cochron: I you, I'm so excited. I'm just excited to be there too, like I mean, yes, Shar, information and whatnot, but I'm excited to be a part of conversations. Too often, we measure what's easy and not what's important. That's right, yeah, and so I'm looking forward to Bringing people together that. Recognize that and having meaningful conversations of: okay then, what can we do that can make it more doable and less daunting? Yeah, to appropriately measure the things that are important and then we have real data to stand on like and that's let's get there, like, that's why I'm super excited about the summit.

Rachael Maves: That's awesome. Well, we're so excited that you're going to be. Joining us and having these conversations. I mean these really important conversations from multiple lenses and viewpoints. As you talk through, what does the future look like? As we wrap up, I'd love to give you the final word for our listeners: any stage, advice, thoughts to ponder.

What would you like to leave us with?

Mary Cochron: Hey, it's, it's. It's not about more testing, it's. About doing assessment better and so, and that's that's what I want to help people do, that's the mission I'm on and so, yeah, that's I'm. I'm just so. I'm just thrilled to be able to be able to share that with you and to talk with you too, Rachael, and looking forward to The Summit in. February and I'm welcoming people to my hometown.

I've lived in three different states, I worked across the country and I'm super excited to welcome people here and yep and have them experience the best food in the country.

Rachael Maves: Yeah, that's great. Well, I look forward to meeting you in person, Mary, and being able to connect and bend your ear a little bit more. When we come together in February. Thank you for your time today. I really appreciate it.

Rachael Maves: Thank you, Parsec education is hosting the measure: what we value Summit on February 5th through 6th in Fresno, California. Join us for impactful conversations on empathy, engagement, hard truth, some more. Alongside leaders like Chaka Booker, Jamila Dugan, Dr Mary Cochron and student speakers like. Liliana Sanchez and Timmy aor. Tickets are limited, so make sure to secure your spot today. Get your tickets at parsecsummit.com.

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This transcript was created from the episode's captions and lightly edited for readability. It may contain small errors; please refer to the audio for exact wording.