Rachael Maves: Hello everyone, you are listening to the Rachael Maves podcast and I am Rachael Maves, your host. Today we are talking to Dr. Cary Holman. Dr. Holman is a veteran educator now serving as the director of schools for the Franklin County School District. Over his 30 year career, Dr. Holman has served in Hamilton, Rutherford and Franklin counties, holding roles ranging from classroom teacher to assistant principal, principal, at-risk coordinator, and adjunct faculty member at multiple institutions.

Dr. Cary Holman: you

Rachael Maves: His leadership journey includes decades of impact in school culture, climate, and educational leadership, where he's known for encouraging educators to view challenges not as problems, but as opportunities. Dr. Holman's dedication to students, families, and the profession has shaped countless learning communities, and I'm thrilled to have him with us today. Thank you, Dr. Holman, for joining me.

Dr. Cary Holman: Thank you so much for having me. I'm glad to be a part of your show today.

Rachael Maves: So I'm excited to hear and learn just a little bit more about your journey. So tell me, Carrie, why did you choose a career in education?

Dr. Cary Holman: Absolutely, you know, it's one of those things I go back to my elementary years as a student and interesting enough that you would ask this question because yesterday evening I had the privilege and the joy to sit with the very reason the person that catapult me to this arena and that was my fourth grade teacher. So yesterday in our district we had what we call parent playoffs.

Rachael Maves: Gosh.

Dr. Cary Holman: And lo and behold, in walks my fourth grade teacher. And she was there with her great niece. And I immediately ran over to her, embraced her. She was the classroom teacher that set the atmosphere in such a way that you wanted to be in that classroom every single day. From her structure to her personality to her nurturing nature, it was

Rachael Maves: Mmm.

Dr. Cary Holman: It was all the things that I enjoyed about school and I told her I would most definitely be an educator. So here I am 30 years in it and it was my fourth grade year that I knew without a shadow of a doubt that I would most definitely be an educator.

Rachael Maves: I love that. That's awe-inspiring. So is it everything that you had hoped it would be? mean, tell me a little bit, like just about your progression. You went from teacher and then all these other positions and now the superintendent or director of schools. How has that unfolded for you?

Dr. Cary Holman: You know, once again, you know, it's when I'm one of those, I can talk about education all the time, at any time. Yeah, because I love everything about it. And so from that experience of being a student and then going into education and becoming an educator, teaching first grade, I was a first grade teacher and I was my children's fourth teacher before Christmas.

Rachael Maves: Yeah, I love it. Yep, you and me both.

Rachael Maves: my word.

Dr. Cary Holman: So I ended up graduating college in December. I literally got the position before I graduated, but the university would not release me until I actually had the degree in hand. So I would go over to that school every afternoon when I would get out of class, set up the classroom because they had such a opportunity, know, because the number of teachers that had left them during that time. So I taught first grade as my

Rachael Maves: No.

Dr. Cary Holman: first teaching assignment, absolutely love first grade. I tell people now having served as a classroom teacher, having served as a coordinator, having served as an assistant principal and a principal, nothing compares to teaching first grade. so, so from moving from first grade, then I go into the central office, very, my, my progression into education happened very quickly.

Rachael Maves: Mm-hmm.

Rachael Maves: Hahaha

Rachael Maves: you

Rachael Maves: Mmm.

Dr. Cary Holman: in the classroom for two years and then immediately went into the central office. And then after central office, what was very interesting, I was ready to return to the classroom to teach because I missed it so. And in that transition, I was called into the central office and said, I want you to go to the middle school to become an assistant principal. Now, the story behind that.

Rachael Maves: wow.

Rachael Maves: Mm.

Dr. Cary Holman: That was the middle school that I attended as a student. And here I now become a 27 year old guy, now serving as an assistant principal at the school that I attended as a middle school student, having to supervise teachers that taught me.

Rachael Maves: No.

Rachael Maves: my gosh.

Rachael Maves: my gosh, how was that?

Dr. Cary Holman: So going back to your opening there, I truly live by the principle of there's no such, I don't believe there's same things as problems. I see everything as an opportunity. And literally, if someone were to tell me that they have a problem, I would simply say, no, what we have, you really have an opportunity. And that's just being very optimistic about all things education. And so serving in that capacity was quite a learning experience.

Rachael Maves: Yes.

Dr. Cary Holman: absolutely loved everything about it. And then leaving the middle school, then I then became an elementary principal. Thought, listen, elementary school, I taught it. I taught first grade, I taught sixth grade at that time. everything about elementary school, I absolutely loved. Stayed in the elementary setting for three years. And then my wife and I, moved out of town.

Rachael Maves: Hmm.

Rachael Maves: Mm-hmm.

Dr. Cary Holman: And so once the town that we moved to, went back into the class. I left my administrative position and went back into the classroom as a classroom teacher. And I never shall forget that when I was interviewing, they asked the question, why would, why are you applying for a teaching position? And you were a principal. And I had to let them know very quickly. I was principal by title, but my love is educating and

If I can be a principal, I can most definitely do it again. But for this particular season, I'm going to be a classroom teacher. And literally went back into the classroom. And in the middle of that third year, I was approached again to come out of my classroom. I had to walk away from my classroom in February and went back into administration again. And so went back into administration in middle school. And then I became a middle school principal.

Rachael Maves: Mmm.

Rachael Maves: my gosh.

Dr. Cary Holman: 17 years in middle school and probably the absolute, you can see the smile on my face, the absolute best years. Middle school, you know, I call the kids in middle school, the children of the wilderness, because all they want to do is murmur and complain, but you get them behind closed doors and they are big babies.

Rachael Maves: Yeah, I do.

Dr. Cary Holman: And so I did that for 17 years and then the opportunity presented itself for this position that I'm currently in as superintendent in the state of Tennessee referred to as director of schools. But it was my long term goal in life. At the age of 18, I said that I would love to come back to my hometown and become the director of schools slash superintendent. The opportunity presented itself. I applied for the position.

Rachael Maves: Parsec Education (07:28.639)

Mm-hmm.

Dr. Cary Holman: Three years later, here I am.

Rachael Maves: That is amazing, Carrie. I mean, what a story. And I love, this push and pull that you've had in the classroom and then in administration and then back to the classroom. I would assume, and I'd love to correct me if I'm wrong, it probably kept you grounded throughout that administrative career in a whole different way than the usual trajectory and even mine, classroom teacher. And then you're off and doing other things. And then you're

the time that is the gap between when you were in the classroom becomes larger and larger. Do you see that playing out a little bit for you? Yeah.

Dr. Cary Holman: without a doubt. And that's exactly why I then matriculated on and decided to do adjunct faculty work at the university. When I became a principal, I knew that I needed my fix. That's what I call it. And my fix is going into the classroom and teaching. So I connected with the university and started then teaching the undergraduate classes and then as well as the graduate classes. in doing, I taught education classes.

Rachael Maves: Yeah.

Rachael Maves: Yeah.

Dr. Cary Holman: And in doing that, always share with my students that by title, I'm principal. My role is to be an instructional leader. So when I was principal, it was a very common practice for me to go down to my teacher's classroom, knock on their door. If I felt very competent in the material, I would relieve them of their teaching duties, give them an extra planning period, and I would teach their class.

Rachael Maves: Yeah.

Dr. Cary Holman: so that I could keep the joy of teaching and learning up.

Rachael Maves: I love that. Yeah.

Rachael Maves: Yeah, yeah, I love that. Okay, so with that lens and all these things that you've held and your love for teaching, what keeps you up at night when you think about our current educational context and the things that we've been through and where we are right now in education? What are those things that just weigh really heavy on you?

Dr. Cary Holman: You know, it's one of those things when you think about all the moving parts in education, you think about the number of children that are entering the doors every single day. But then here's the component that people really don't do a whole lot of talking. And that's about the adults that are entering those doors every single day. And so what

Rachael Maves: Yeah.

Rachael Maves: Mm-hmm.

Dr. Cary Holman: keeps me up at night is a strong statement. I would say from this angle, the things that constantly I meditate on is knowing those children who don't have the stability at home, how are they doing? Because I experienced that many, times with children at my middle school when I was middle school principal. But then also those teachers who and support staff

Rachael Maves: Mm.

Dr. Cary Holman: who are walking around each day, who are keeping deep embedded their traumas that they're not dealing with. And so that's a concern. And then the other part of that is from a larger scale, the sheer number of individuals that desire to make statements or policies.

or decisions for educators, and yet there has been an absence of their presence in those settings is quite alarming, particularly when you as a leader are trying to keep individuals motivated to stay in such a noble profession, but yet at the same time, we're being battered and beaten.

Rachael Maves: Mm-hmm.

Dr. Cary Holman: from the exterior walls, not knowing all the things that they, that educators are most definitely dealing with on a daily basis. So those would be the things that would, that tend to linger in my mind throughout the night.

Rachael Maves: Yeah.

Rachael Maves: Yeah.

Rachael Maves: Yeah, and what you're bringing up I hear often in different conversations. One, I think that you're right on is there has been an additional layer upon layer upon layer that educators have had to hold in trying to figure out how do we support those students who are experiencing that lack of stability and what does that look like and what is that role and what isn't and then at the same time in the midst of trying to do that and navigate that.

There is this component of pushing in and policies getting added on to the job, the role, the expectation that I think create a lot of noise within our systems sometimes. Good intentions, but a lot of noise.

Dr. Cary Holman: Absolutely, in addition to the noise, the internal frustrations, the doubt of, know, there are individuals who have gone into the profession because this is their joy, this is their purpose in life. It's their purpose. And to know that you are walking and leading in purpose and at the same time you have these external forces that causes an individual to be

Rachael Maves: Yeah, yeah.

Rachael Maves: That's right. Yeah.

Dr. Cary Holman: unstable and being in the decisions that they're making. We as educators, I firmly believe we as educators know what children need in an environment on said given day. And I say it that way because each day is going to be different because children are leaving and coming back and you have to meet children where they are.

Rachael Maves: Yes.

Rachael Maves: Mm-hmm.

Dr. Cary Holman: and then bring them to where we would like for them to go.

Rachael Maves: Yeah, meeting them where they are. Yeah, that's right. 100%. So when you think about...

Those two things that you brought up, one is like looking at how do we create that stability? And then two is this kind of bombardment of policy that sometimes does not jive or is maybe in juxtaposition of the work that we're doing. What are one or two ways that either you've moved forward successfully or you propose that people consider as their way to move forward in those areas?

Dr. Cary Holman: Number one, a person, an educator in this field has got to truly believe in himself or herself. That's first and foremost. The person has to understand the purpose of why I do what I do as an educator and then stand true to that in all things, never compromising your values and your beliefs about education.

Rachael Maves: Mm-hmm.

Dr. Cary Holman: 30 years into the work, I love everything that I do in education. But one thing I will not do is compromise my belief about what is important. And what's important in schools is that none other than the children themselves. I get accountability. I understand it. I understand curriculum. I understand assessment. But what I understand more

Rachael Maves: That's right. Yep.

Dr. Cary Holman: are the children that are sitting there wondering if home is going to be there when they get home, will they have those things that they need? Going back to Maslow's basic hierarchy of needs, those things are extremely important if we want children to truly enjoy, to learn, and embrace their learning experience. So you've got to stay rooted and grounded. A person has to stay rooted and grounded and truly believe

Rachael Maves: Yeah.

Rachael Maves: That's right.

Dr. Cary Holman: that the impact that we set forth to do every day, we may not get to see it right then, but the time will come, I've seen it too many times, the time will come when you will be able to see the fruits of your labor.

Rachael Maves: Yeah, that's right. Yeah, yeah. And there, I will say there is nothing better than, I mean, at least for me, either students or staff that have later on reached out and said, I don't know if you know this, but this is the impact that you had, or thank you so much for this. And at the time, I remember thinking, especially one in particular, I never would have guessed, you know, that these small things were.

even resonating, but then years later to hear that, I think that's one of the gifts of education that's just so powerful.

Dr. Cary Holman: It is extremely powerful in so much that when I go out and I'm speaking at conferences or workshops or school districts a question that I always ask individuals and I ask every educated this how many of you have ever had students to come back and come to see you and of course around the room everybody raised their hand right but then I follow that question up with this when those students show back up how many of them have ever come back to your room

Rachael Maves: Yeah. Yeah.

Dr. Cary Holman: and sit down and talk to you about a test that you gave.

Rachael Maves: Yeah.

Dr. Cary Holman: Not one, not one. I said, and so my point is, so let's let the main thing be the main thing. And that's be the connections that we make with kids because when they come back, they're coming back to talk about those moments, the memories, the magic, the experiences. They're not coming back talking about a 10 question, 10 item test. They're not coming back talking about state tests.

Rachael Maves: So funny. Let the main thing be the main thing.

Rachael Maves: Yeah, that's right. Yeah. Yeah.

Rachael Maves: Yeah.

Dr. Cary Holman: They're coming back and really reminiscing on all the amazing times that they had in said building or said classroom.

Rachael Maves: Yeah, that's right. Yeah, yeah. Well, this is our last question, Carrie, and I'm excited to hear how you're going to answer this based off this discussion. So what question in education are we not asking that we really should be?

Dr. Cary Holman: Ha ha!

Dr. Cary Holman: What question are we not asking in education that we really need to be asking? Here's the truth. And I might see it as a simple question, but someone else may see it as an irrelevant question. But one question we're not asking in education is this, are you all right?

Rachael Maves: Hmm, tell me more.

Dr. Cary Holman: Now, I say that from that of a child. How often do we as educators pause and ask children, are you all right? How many of us as colleagues, we sit and we collaborate with our colleagues, we build tests with our colleagues, lunch with our colleagues, but how often do we say, are you all right? How often do we pull in the parents?

Rachael Maves: Mm-hmm.

Rachael Maves: Hmm.

Rachael Maves: Yeah.

Dr. Cary Holman: that we know may be a single parent or it may be a grandparent that's raising a child, but do we pause to say, how are you? And the reason I preface that is when you think about education, what is the foundational piece to education? We want to provide experiences.

Rachael Maves: Mm-hmm.

Rachael Maves: Mm-hmm.

Dr. Cary Holman: to families, to kids, to faculty and staff that will be long lasting and life changing. Yes, curriculum is important. Yes, we're gonna expose you to different field studies. But how often is someone checking on me as an individual, particularly as leaders? Many times in a leadership role, I've said this before, it can be lonely at the top.

Rachael Maves: Yeah.

Rachael Maves: yeah.

Dr. Cary Holman: Because it's that time that you're constantly making decisions and you're moving so fast that you wonder, does anybody notice? Is anyone wondering what's going on? Even from the lawmaker standpoint,

Rachael Maves: Mm-hmm.

Dr. Cary Holman: If we as educators were just simply ask, how are you doing as an educator? I think the conversation would merit such rich discussion because it's going to pull individuals to really hone in and think about all the moving parts when it comes to education. for example,

Just like the question, what keeps you up at night? There are things that teachers are dealing with, that they're saying, that they are compressing, and they're not getting it out. And the more and more you hear those stories, the more and you see those stories, and yet you show back up to work every single day, that's got to be putting pressure somewhere. And is anyone pausing and saying, how are you?

Rachael Maves: Yeah, I love that. And you're really speaking, I think.

the heart of what sets education apart as a field because exactly what you said, yes, we are here to make sure that the life-changing part happens, right? But it has to happen in relationship. I mean, it's the intersection of both of those that are the amazing stories that people love to hear, right? That movies are made out of that become those hopes, the North Star of the amazing culture and impact that education can have. it's in that

Dr. Cary Holman: Yeah.

Rachael Maves: intersection of both of those things done well.

Dr. Cary Holman: And so, so many times, so many times you have adults that are walking buildings, that are riding on boards. And the truth is they're carrying an invisible backpack that is filled with so many different weights. And when no one is pausing for a moment, and the reason I believe that we're not pausing is because so many mandates,

Rachael Maves: Yeah, that's right. Yeah.

Dr. Cary Holman: so many expectations coming from all different angles. When you think about a teacher, he or she's having expectations from the team, from parents, from the school administration. Then the school administration is getting expectations from the district office. The district office is then getting expectations from the state level. The state is then getting expectations from the federal level. So when you start bringing all those things down,

Rachael Maves: Yeah.

Rachael Maves: Yeah.

Dr. Cary Holman: How often are we pausing to say, hey, I just want to check on you. Are you OK?

Rachael Maves: Yeah, yeah, yeah, I love that. On that note, Gary, thank you so much for your time today and for the conversation. I really appreciate it. And just your leadership, holding both of those things in place.

Dr. Cary Holman: Thank you so very much. I enjoy it.

Rachael Maves: Remember the fall is an ideal time to check in on your school's climate and culture, similar to what Carrie and I were just talking about.

Parsec Real is an AI-powered platform built for gathering input from across your community. Our platform's ability to engineer questions for all audience types, reading levels, and in multiple languages grants accessibility to students and families who previously may have been unable to add their voices to the conversation. To learn more on engaging your whole community through valuable feedback, check out parseceducation.com.

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This transcript was created from the episode's captions and lightly edited for readability. It may contain small errors; please refer to the audio for exact wording.