Rachael Maves: Hi everyone. You are listening to the Rachael Maves podcast and I'm your host, Rachael Maves, today we are talking to Jim Cowan, the executive director at the collaborative for Student Success, a nonprofit dedicated to lifting and defending strong practices and K-12 education policies, driving improved outcomes for all students. Jim completed his undergraduate degree from Marquette University and his master's degree from Georgetown University. Prior to his role at the collaborative, he served as a US Naval office officer and honed his expertise in Communications and public relations during his time as senior vice president at ogly public relations worldwide. Jim, thank you for joining me today.

Jim Cowen: Thank you, good to see you, Rachael.

Rachael Maves: Good to see you too. I'm really excited about this conversation and, like always, we start with just the opportunity to tell your story. How did you end in this, up in this role? What was your path and trajectory? I mean, you kind of found a unique Niche and education, especially coming from the US, as a US officer.

Jim Cowen: Yeah it. I had someone tell me once that I'm kind of like the Forest Gump of public education is his jobs minus the skills in football, because Force W's really good football player I and Runner yeah. L. Yeah, I do not come into the to the education sphere with the pedigree that many of my colleagues have. I, as you read off, I started straight out of high school, I get. I guess my story is a good one for Education because I thought I was prepared for more than what I was through.

You know my high school. It was a good high school. I did well in my high school, but I wanted to go US Naval Academy and I realized, as I was entering my senior year, I was nowhere prepared for the US Naval Academy and I thought it was and I thought I' had done everything that I was supposed to do and I clearly hadn't, you know, reached the level competency that I needed to, but I was able to get a scholarship that had me do. Remediation and had, basically I had to join the military as an enlisted sailor, go through basic training, go do some remedial courses in physics and calculus and some english as well, and then I would get a full ride: scholarship as either in Roc or in the US Academy, appointment Academy, wow. And after going through all that extra year and a half of my life, I decided I'm going to school and I went to markat University and I loved it and I so I had that sort of like appreciation for, like I wasn't ready and I was like not going to let that happen again to me, and I think that primed me for other Adventures later in life. I then, you know, served the Navy for you know, a good 10 little over 10 years, but it took me, you know, through deployments across the world and then landed me in Washington DC at the Pentagon where I served there, met my wife well, then my girlfriend, and then my you know future wife, and we settled here.

I end up going getting a job at over public relations, and that was fantastic to learn about how to build like really strong Communications. Campaigns and engagement and advocacy work. And I was tapped by, you know, a friend and mentor of mine who worked then at the collaborative which had just started up. She said, hey, are you up for a really aggressive campaign around school standards? And I go, I don't know anything. Think about school standard.

Well, I need a deputy and I need someone who can help me better understand the military. I go, I'm your guy. And so I then jumped in and made that leap and from then on I then ramped up to the executive director of the Clara and have been her since it's.

Rachael Maves: I always find it fascinating when people who have had other careers in areas of focus and Specialty come into education. I'd love to hear, as you were making that trans transition, what were like your ahas or things that really struck you about education from a fresh lens and perspective.

Jim Cowen: Yeah, I think there's two things that struck me. One: there were a lot of things that were exactly the same as what you saw in other fields, like the health field. Like health field, some of our clients were in the health business, some of them were in the National Defense business and there are many of the same kind of silos that happen in those. As you see, in education there are people who are, who have been there for an awful long time, who you know, and sometimes there's an inability to see outside of the sphere that you're working in, sure, yeah, and not creating things that are tangible and that can be understood by people outside the bubble. I think that's just something that happens in any group. What I didn't think about the education world that was unique was the level of devotion, was something deeper than I felt.

In some of the other Industries there's always people who are, you know, going to be very committed to what they're doing for either National Security or health. With those feels that I was in, but it was different in the education sphere because I started to work with teachers and see the level of devotion that teachers gave to what they did and that was super motivating for me to see. So that's I'd say those are some of the similarties and differences that I saw.

Rachael Maves: Yeah, that it's affirming to hear you say that, because I've often felt like most people get into education because they actually feel this like calling towards, it's like this moral imperative for kids, yeah, which I think is a different driver than other fields often times, I know in such a wide group, you know the I'd love just knowing your background and what you just shared with us about not feeling prepared and the way in which you went through high school and the impact that then had later. How I mean you're in this I mean great role now, leading the collaborative. How does that experience really drive and shape the work that you're doing now?

Jim Cowen: State that question one more time for me. I want to hear that one more time.

Rachael Maves: Yeah, how does your experience as a high schooler feel? Not feeling prepared and feeling like you had what you needed to be successful and what you wanted to do. How does that drive the work that you're doing now at the collaborative?

Jim Cowen: It is so aligned and I really haven't written about this yet because I it's very, because it's so personal, but I feel it in the groups and the initiatives that we're doing now and with my own kids right, I have two daughters who are teenagers. I'm very much always placing what we're doing into what does it mean to my, to the people who are closest to me, which are my two daughters? We did an initiative when I first started out, which was we called it game plan for success, and what we tried to do was demonstrate how success in certain things like sports is extremely similar to what you need to be successful in your education experience. You've got to have a certain bar set for you that is high enough that pushes you to do something. Yeah, you have to have a coach that helps you to reach that bar and push you to do things that you may not have done on your own. You've got to have some sort of measurement.

That calculates how close you were to reaching that goal, whether or not you actually did reach it or not. And you've got have a series of support networks around you, be they coaches, family members, friends, who are encouraging you and providing you the kind of support to keep doing that you unfortunately, parents, as I did too like as my kids were playing sports, man, that resonated so well with me. I'm like I, that all makes sense to me. And if we, if my kid, needed a coach in, you know, like a soccer coach, to help them with you know they wanted to be a striker, but they needed to improve on something. I'm down with doing what, whatever we got to do, or in swimming or cross country, yeah, we tend to not put the same level of commitment sometimes as parents to what we need for the classroom. Yeah, so you know, that was something that I felt very deeply about.

You know, I think there's a similarity there.

Rachael Maves: Yeah, absolutely, and sometimes it's a gap of knowledge and understanding. And how do we, yeah, create those connections and help build awareness and support?

Jim Cowen: Yeah, I think I really do believe that working alongside and with parents is such an untapped resource in education, absolutely, yeah, if the parent is not personally, like if the parent is not engaged on it, then on what is happening in the classroom, it's really tough for, I think, for the teachers to be the Sole Provider. Yeah, particularly in, I think, in underserved communities, like if there's, if you're only receiving the instruction. In the classroom and then you're not having it reinforced, be it by what you hear from other mentors or coaches or the people that are close to you outside the classroom. You know what does that mean? We have done. We as like I think a as a nation are doing better with things like around reading.

Right, we are. Developing. We all have a good sense of what it means to have a healthy reading environment for your home. I think you know most parents know like I need to read to my kids frequently when they're little, because that's a that message is getting through. You know, the science of reading is now taking up great momentum, including in state legislatures. Yeah, that's where it is now no longer something that's just, you know, a passing thought.

No, there's a lot of evidence that's that's painting like this is how it needs to be taught in the classroom. This is what's going to make a difference. So we have that understanding of that healthy environment for reading. Yeah, I'm not doing the same thing for math right now, and that's one of the things that I'm very concerned about and, from the cabers standpoint, is like, how do we Define a healthy math home environment? And there's lots of things that are pushing against that.

Rachael Maves: Yeah, well, that is a perfect segue, kind of, into our next question is: what keeps you up at night? I mean, education over the last few years has just had so many hits and really massive things to try to navigate from your lens of what you're seeing across the collaborative and nationally. What is it that really keeps you up at night?

Jim Cowen: Yeah, education, I'm glad to say in education because, like I said, I've got two 10age daughters. There's plenty that. Keep: yeah with you with lots, but for Education. So, as I was saying, like one of the biggest things I'm concerned about is our progress on math. Like we have made it, you know, so acceptable for someone to be not a math person. We don't blink twice about saying that and excusing it, basically, and I think a lot of it's to protect our kids if they are struggling with it.

But I don't think it does kids any favors long term to do that and I think that's something that something we've definitely tried to do over the last year in our work ground math, that the collaborative is to start to put the kabash on it and being okay to say that I'm just not a math person. Stop saying it, you know. And is that going to change the world? No, but it's a start and if enough people recognize that we should stop saying that, then that's that's one thing. That's from a narrative standpoint. But I'm but I'm concerned about the overall competency of math in the states and I'm worried, you know, next week I'm not sure where this podcast will air, but next week we're going to see the roll out of the national assessment for Education progress.

Yeah, and it's probably not going to be good. I mean, fingers crossed it's somehow it's going to be really great news around. You know, the kids are doing really great in the country. I don't think we're going to see that. I think it's going to be. You know, I think it's going to be some news that's going to show that kids are not doing really great, particularly around numeracy.

And so the question is like, kind of like, what do we do with that now in country?

Rachael Maves: Yeah, absolutely, I'm, like you, really interested to see what those scores are and to be able to understand. Are there bright spots? Are there places that we can look and learn from, or we're seeing that students were doing well, like they're? I'm always looking for those spaces too, you know. So I'm excited for that.

Jim Cowen: Those scores to come out, yeah, and I think that there are bright spots and there are things that are happening in States and I do think that's important for us to talk about when those scores do come out. When they come out, they're probably not going to be good. We need to acknowledge that and not pretend like it's not there, because it is there, it's bad and it's something we've got to address, but it doesn't mean we sit on our hands either. I think the question is, like we say, yeah, we got to do, we have to do more about it and what is that going to be? And one of the things that you know we keep saying is that you know one: we've got to see more commitment from States, and we are seeing some commitment from States from a legislative standpoint, where, you know, leaders are actually. Forming legislative plans in their states to do more around math.

Colorado is one, you know, one example of state that's doing a phenomenal job. Alabama, you know, has now in place a numeracy act, where there is dedicated efforts and tactics and strategies in the state you know, to address the things that need to be done. Yeah, we're, we are very excited about things like accelerated advancement or automatic enrollment, which is, yeah, which is a policy at several States, including like North Carolina and Texas and Washington State, are putting in the place or have put in the place, where a kid no longer has to opt into to moving into advanced math, but if they have met a certain standard of progress in math, you are automatically put into a new math class and that's a great way to ensure that kids that may have been counted out in fact, there's a great story in North Carolina that spurred that whole legislation that was called counted out that you know that prevented a lot of kids from not having the chance to do so. Yeah, move on to take those Advanced courses.

Rachael Maves: Yeah, it's interesting to me because we've had this wave, like you mentioned earlier, of this focus on literacy and we saw during that time a lot of massive State initiatives around literacy. So I feel like we have the groundwork set for how to do this. Now it's kind of the feel like people are looking for the what, like, what is the area within math that we can anchor into and then start to push it forward. Those are great examples that you just gave too.

Jim Cowen: I think you hit on a really good point there and that there is this great momentum around science of learning and science of I'm sorry science of reading, and I want to try to separate the two because they're not the same thing, right? I think people, and particularly legislators, are going to be, they're going to have the temptation of trying to find the same blueprint that worked for reading for math. Yes, and it doesn't exist and it's not the same thing. There really isn't a science of math that's com, that's GNA be the exact same thing as a science of reading, yeah, you know. So I think it's important we that we differentiate that and then and help legislators and states to realize like there are good things that can happen and to look at the evidence-based efforts that are showing progress in math, and there are ones there like we've talked a little bit about. You know, the auto enrollment policy like that is a great way for states to show interest and a lot of other states are starting to want to mimic and repeat what they're seeing in States like North Carolina, Texas, Washington I know Indiana's looking at this as well and several others.

But there are Al some really good high quality instructional materials that we know are out there that are doing a great job right that should be adopted by classrooms and by teachers to implement those. We know that there's a lot of good professional learning options that are out there for teachers that can help them to be better at sort of providing that instruction. It's not enough to just drop the instruction materials in a class and expect every teacher to know how to implement those right. It has to know. You know there are different procedures and that need to happen and they need the teachers need those kind of professional learning supports as well. I talked about the automatic enrollment idea and then just those various teacher preparation methods, poly for getting more good Math teachers into the system too.

Yeah, and teacher getting more teach teachers in the system is not a new problem. This has been around for a long time. But there are groups out there that are doing, you know, really Stiller jobs of trying to. To create more teachers in the math sphere that are just better prepared for getting in there?

Rachael Maves: Yeah, absolutely what? As you're? I mean you've brought forward a lot of different ideas and initiatives. Are there any others that, when you think about how, like concrete ways, we can start to move forward, that you would say this let's, let's start here and push this?

Jim Cowen: Yep, what I'd say? High-quality instructional material learnings and teacher support, things like zern, we know are really strong methods of helping classrooms with their instructional materials. The high quality professional learning ideas with, we know are strong. That should be in there. More instructional time, like I know that is just the one. It's like: look, there's only so many hours in the day.

You can do this. We realize that, but anything we can do to increase the amount of time that kids have. With good instruction around math competency, new is going to help.

Rachael Maves: Yeah, I'm so glad that, as we're having this conversation, you're pairing high quality instruction with high quality instructional materials, because I do feel like there's been this narrative in the last few years where if we can just get the curriculum in people's hands, it's going to, like solve all the problems, and I really do believe like it, having been a teacher, like your curriculum is great, but if you don't understand the pedagogy side of what that means and looks like to operationalized and have it come to life in your classroom, there's still a major Gap there and I personally don't feel like we're talking about bad enough. Like how do we get that support and build it up? And we have all the research that actually shows what those that looks like to move the needle for kids. But yeah, totally agree.

Jim Cowen: I mean in the military, like on a ship, it was a curse when someone would come to your ship who was representing some you know contractor would say we have this upgrade for your system and they'd come in and they would upgrade your system with this whole new you know radar or some sort of detection and weapon, and then they'd leave and they go: all right, you guys, good luck, we know you're getting underway tomorrow. We. Go, you going, what' you just do? You know and I think that you know that analogy is not lost on me in education like it's the same thing. When those guys walk off, they go: here's your, here's your curricul, you know, here's your new curriculum and your instruction materials. And the teachers look at them in blink and go: wait a minute, that I, they don't have the experience or the they haven't had the preparation to be able to impl.

It's like it's like having a Ferrari, but you know, driving it backwards and forwards in your driveway. Like you got to get on the open road to know how to use that thing to the best of its ability. And so you know, for States who are recognizing it, that we, you know, we applaud them for be like you can't just drop the materials and think it's just going to magically appear in people's brains.

Rachael Maves: Yeah, no, it takes a little bit than that for sure. So what? This is my, our final question, Jim, and I love this question because I always get such a variety of answers but what question in education are we not asking, that we're not hearing about that? We really should.

Jim Cowen: So there's a couple, and one of them I'll I'll say is based on. Okay, this is probably revealing too much information, but I had a conversation with my 16-year-old daughter's boyfriend last night. Oh, because he is very much he's kind of an entrepreneur, he has some businesses that he's doing himself and we had a really interesting talk about education and he said he goes, I don't necessarily feel that I'm getting the return on investment from my high school education. It's a bright kid, this is a bright KY. And I'll tell you, like I know it's, it's not good for your daughter's dad to be talking this, you know, to be liking the boyfriend this much, or, like you know, because it's generally it's a kind of the kiss of death for right that's. But I thought it was just such a great, insightful comment because I think that is a question that we really need to pose across the entire education sphere.

Like is just thinking about your own kid? Is your own kid getting the return on investment that they are putting in to their high school education? At the end of it, that you know, we're, we're, we're getting them in into a school, but are we really preparing them with the instruction that had to take on a meaningful career and becoming, you know, a? Self-sufficient contributing member of society. I think we need to like really consider what that Roi is and that should transfer, like Beyond just college. Right, I have to really give a hat tip to Indiana and Secretary of Education Katie Jenner.

There is doing a really awesome job by it's by bringing in their a new high school diploma called who your plus and it's and it's it's based on his idea of helping kids to explore different opportunities along the way and not be punished for trying to figure out what they want to do with their lives. Like how can you offer different? I think badges is what they're, what they're sort of calling them around things like public service and trades, and there's a I think there's a military one as well, but it's, but it's whole. It's all designed to sort of give kids a, an UNR to an idea around what they might want do and an off-ramp, but it doesn't punish them or put them way behind and their educational progress and I think that's. I think that's really good. And again, to get back to this conversation I had with this young gentleman was that he goes.

There are some courses that I just love, like I could stay there, you know, well past the when the bell goes off because, like it, for him it's e economics. He wants to talk about economics because he has his own business, so he wants to talk about supply and demand. He wants to talk about, you know, inelastic cost curves. You know because he sees it in real motion. Yeah, like, how do we? How do we?

How do we create an environment? I don't just say like make learning fun, because that feels very you know that's like to out, but how do we get people to see the reality? And the relevance in the classroom activities and how do we make it so that you can get what you need and not be punished, yeah, for not taking certain courses. It's, I know this is a tough one, but just looking at it, very, you know, realistically.

Rachael Maves: No, I love that and I'm I'm hearing more and more conversation about that of from States, but then also District leaders, around that academic return on investment, like: how do we truly know and what does that mean and look like, and how do we leverage all the data that we have to be able to make informed decisions, yeah, you know, to drive strategic planning, and I feel like there's some big key components that are missing in our current struct, structures and systems.

Jim Cowen: For sure, yeah, I'll see. One other thing I think we need to look at, too, is just how we're considering Civics in our courses throughout the country, because it's this is something that has divided us so deeply right now. I think we need to really consider ways in which we can discuss elements. Our of how we govern in a safe way that advances what a kid knows, without feeling scary, to right now like, and that's a way, that's a you know, this is a big one right now across the country, and so how do you get, how do you make this happen without it feeling like some kids are being indoctrinated right now in the country?

Rachael Maves: [speaker uncertain] Yeah gosh, if we can, just as. Adults. I mean, I think that would be a really good place to start.

Jim Cowen: Can I ask you, Rachael, also, like with Parsec, I was looking at your site and you guys were talking about you're hosting this measure. What We Value Summit, and I'm not. I swear Rachael didn't give me 20 bucks to say this out loud, but we see, like you guys have this Summit on early February about, yeah, measuring what you value, which I think is a great idea, and I actually think that's part of what the national Governor Association is. That's their big initiative right now, too is around quality measurement of student progress. Can you just tell me a little more about that?

Rachael Maves: Yeah, so one of the things that Parsec is really committed to is data, and I mean, as you know, all data isn't necessarily good data, and there's, there's a wealth of data that we're not collecting and really giving like voice to, and some of that is the qualitative side of things, like how do we hear from students, from families, from community members about their experiences in the macro, but then also in the micro, in the classroom, but then, all the way up to the way in which it, like strategic planning, and the initiatives are put into place, have a ripple effect and an impact. And so what we're committed to is how do we move Beyond and not say that it's not anything that is of relevance because it is quantitative? Data is extremely important, but how do we marry it with this qualitative side of thing so that we can get the whole picture? And it's part of what drew me to Parsec. Honestly, Jim, when I was at the County office and then also at CDE and tdoe, we would talk a lot about quantitative data being that data that, like, gives you the blinking signal that says something's not working within our system. If the majority of our third graders aren't reading at grade levels, something's not working in our system.

But then it requires an interrogation to get deeper, to understand the why and often that's actually going to come from experience, from the staff experience, from the student experience, from the family experience to be able to shift and change, to make sure that we're putting the right levers in place so that, when we talk about the measure, what we value Summit, that's really what we're looking at, and the focus of highlight that I think it's extraordinarily powerful is that we bring in students that want to share their stories and experience. So we're highlighting and looking at yes, Parsec as this quantitative data company, but listen to these students so that they can share The Good, The Bad and The and a lot of really great things, but then a lot of things that really we need to be thinking about as school leaders of how do we shift and change some of our practices.

Jim Cowen: I really love that and those data levers as you're talking about, and the flags. They're often lagging indicators. Right, yes, ab, and so how far? Upstream. Was the lever that forced that? So, because it's not often just the one right before, it's the one that's three, four, yes, steps back, and how are you able to determine if that's the case?

Man, there's a, there's a, great book by Dan Heath. If you ever, for chip and Dan Heath, the brothers talk about this up, this Upstream thing. So you just love to read that too. I want to go to your conference. So me, is it still in Fr? I see it's in Fresno.

Rachael Maves: It is. Yeah, yep, and that's where our headquarters are. We're pretty committed to the valley and really trying to bring the paret community and others there. So that is uplifting that area. But yeah, I'll send you the information out above that.

Rachael Maves: Yeah well, thank you so much for your time today. This has just been a pleasure. It's good to see you.

Jim Cowen: Good to see you. Thanks, a.

---

This transcript was created from the episode's captions and lightly edited for readability. It may contain small errors; please refer to the audio for exact wording.