Rachael Maves: Hi everyone. You are listening to the Rachael Maves podcast and I'm Rachael Maves, your host. This podcast is part of the leadup to the upcoming measure what we value Summit scheduled for February 5th through 6th 2025 in Fresno, California. The summit emphasizes honoring and amplifying student voices, fostering inclusive classrooms and equipping Educators with tools for impactful change. You can find more information at parsecsummit.com. Today we are talking with Dr Marshall Baker, who is the education analyst director at Parsec education, with whom I have the pleasure and privilege to work with.

He is a datadriven executive systems leader with a demonstrated history of achieving Cradle to Career results for students, workers and families. Dr Baker has worked in Workforce Development, Career and Technical education, higher education, public education, the charter sector and Private Industry, all key to his ability to see, empathize and improve Educational Systems that yield high quality jobs. Throughout his career, he has been able to leverage relationships, data, strategic planning and systems alignment to achieve results. Marshall, thank you for joining me today.

Marshall Baker: Yes, hi, Rachael, it's good. I listen to the podcast. I watch. It's so interesting. I, yeah, it's a it's a pleasure to be here. So I'm excited about the summit and it's fun to start thinking about, as that gets closer, what's going to be included there.

Rachael Maves: Yeah, and this is a fun one because we work together and I know your schedule and I know all of the million things that you're juggling right now. So thank you for just carving out some time to have this really important conversation about measuring what we value. But we always want to start with this opportunity for you to elevate your story, to talk a little bit about your journey. What led you to your current role, why a career and education? I'd love for you to kick us off.

Marshall Baker: Yeah, you bet. Well, I'm a. I'm a farm kid from Eastern New Mexico, was raised on a farm in Eastern New Mexico. My parents raised peanuts, cattle, a lot of alfalfa for the dairies Mo, most of which had moved from California out to our region. And as a part of that I was really involved in agricultural education. That was the club that I was a part of in school.

So I was a big FFA member, served as a state officer and I got to travel the whole state and just go to from school to school. I went to 43 different schools in a year, oh wow, and I just started falling in love with schools. Some of those schools were on various reservations in New Mexico and we got to. I got to stay there, you know, on with the school system. I stayed there for two or three days and hung out with families and saw how the program interacted with their families and all different kinds of schools in. Mexico.

Then I was elected to a national office and I got to do that again, but across the United States. So I spent a year just promoting postsecondary attainment, in agriculture, sure, but in the background I was going to be a doctor, of course, you know, and my parents you know, oh, this is going to be great for your med school applications. And in the back of my mind, every time I went to a new school and I just saw the families, I'd go to a banquet and I would see families and administrators and teachers and. Every school in every state was so wildly different. Yeah, yet it seemed to be like I just fell in love with schools as what I just began to believe the biggest lever of social change in our country, just seeing how schools were so embedded into every Community I went to and seeing them nationally and how different they were, but also how similar they were. Yeah, I just fell in love with schools.

So I had to break the news to my parents, said I was no longer. Premiss and I make you don't imagine how that conversation went. It did not go well. My parents were supportive, of course, but oh yeah, I'm the youngest of a lot of kids and so they always thought I was kind of the weird one. So they were like, what is Marshall doing? But I'm one of those.

Education really found me. I didn't really it out, it just I was skipping my pre Med meetings to go do workshops for students and so I finally just leaned into that and I, you know, I worked at a charter school in downtown Indianapolis. That was a really Innovative model. I worked at a very traditional Public School in Albuquerque. I was a principal here in Oklahoma and then a professor of teacher education, which is where I really got into Data. Yeah, so my passion for Education connected to data in my doctoral program.

I just fell in love with research, EV valuation methods and stats and how we measure things in the social sector. It's so much more complicated, like just statistically. You know we're doing really Advanced statistical analysis because social systems are hard to measure. Yeah, and then I would talk to my hard science friends and they're just using a T Test, very simple TP, doing like world changing scientific research to change the world. And I'm like, oh, are you doing a MANOVA? Or like what's your canonical correlates?

And they'd say, oh, just running a simple t-test. So I started to realize how difficult measurement is in the social sector and just fell in love with those two worlds and that led me to Park's, a natural place where those Worlds Collide, and that's why the summit to me is a really exciting place. But that's my journey, I love it: two awesome kids, a wife that deals with me, we show sheep, I ride. And I love school.

Rachael Maves: I've love to hear a little bit, Marshall, because that's you had such a unique experience and lens and being able to have this other position where you're going out and seeing schools all across the country and interacting with them in a very different way. I mean, how do you feel like that's informed, the way in which you're doing the work?

Marshall Baker: Now I think what I learned at each one is, I mean, honestly, I saw school systems that were incredible, yeah, and then I saw school systems that I'd be like. This just is unfortunate. This is, you know, seeing how the educational programs and like the Career and Technical funding was being funneled to schools and how schools were choosing to use that funding in different ways. You know, I would see some that I could just tell that's going to lead to a lot of kids getting to a life of choice. Yeah, and others I would say I would think to myself as I left: man, I don't really know if that program yeah, I don't. I wonder how that those funds, you know, I'm not sure that's going to work in the same way, yeah.

But then I also would see parents and administrators that were all equally passionate, and I just saw how much people relied on their school system, relied on it for so many things, from food to health, to like development, to school, to reading, to math, to college, to. So it was both the need for consistency in how we apply our interventions, like how we do school. I both saw a need for consistency around that. But I also learned to Value the need for different folks to develop a program that fits them, their Community. I've seen that difference. So the room for flexibility, but then the need for accountability to make sure every kid has a chance at a really great system to help them get to their goals.

So I kind of learned, yeah, you know, like measures aren't that grade, like let's, I don't stay testing. I, you know I'd kind of be in that camp and then I would be at you know the chart where I'm like this measurement stuff's not working. Then I'd be at another school where I'm like some of us need to be held accountable to like getting the results. I learn to hold that Dynamic, both Dynamics, yeah, and I think that tension is tough to hold. But that's probably what I learned most from visiting so many different systems.

Rachael Maves: Yeah, it's funny that you share that, because I see that even in the way in which you wead our education analysts at persc, you know where you do such a great job of holding that space of where the consistent things that we need to put into place as we're helping our partners dive really deep into their data and understand it. But then also, this lens of every system's a little bit different and unique, and where we dive in and the things that are meaningful are going to look a little bit different, and you do that very well in leading the team, Marshall, well thanks.

Marshall Baker: Yeah, I think both of us, like we all have those conversations. And, Rachael, I think one thing with the session that you know I'll I'll lead at:. Summit. You know we built a tool to try to help facilitate measurement, which is hard, and strategic planning. Yeah, I think the biggest thing we've learned is I, for me person personally, I kind of thought everyone would kind of show up needing or wanting to use the tool in the same way, but what we're finding is that the tool is really not what matters at all. Yeah, what matters.

Is the school approach to strategic planning and accountability, and it's so funny we have the exact same tool but we have eight or nine partners that are using it wildly diff in different ways.

Rachael Maves: Yeah, and I think it just speaks to how hard measurement is and the need for us to all have conversations about how do we hold measurement in its right place while not over relying on measurement, you know, how do we leave room for qualitative measures while also understanding the value of quantitative measures and what's the role that the LCAP can play.

Marshall Baker: Yeah, LCAP is really important, but then it's also it has its own nuance, based on just the government attachment to it. So how do you both honor LCAP, but then how do you extend that deeper into your system? It's like every school system is seeing strategic planning a bit differently. Yeah, I think that's the need for this discussion. That's what I'm excited about is to get everyone in a room and say: let's learn. You know how are you measuring and what measures are you using, and how do we go beyond testing while not just ignoring standardized tests that have a role so y, That's what I'm excited about in.

Rachael Maves: So, and just for our listeners who are kind of hearing this for the first time around, what we're talking about in the platform, Park's working on a platform called Clarity. We're in beta testing right now and what Marshall said is exactly right: we're looking at this academic return on investment and how do we know the strategies that we're putting into place through our strategic planning processes are really actually getting us the outcomes that we want and are worth the Investments that we're making to ensure that we're moving towards positive outcomes for kids? And what Marshall said is right: we're we're just starting this out with eight, but every on-ramp is a little bit different and figuring out what that way, in which it's going to be really truly a living thing within their system is dependent upon the partner. So I'd love that's a perfect segue, Marshall into telling us a little bit about the session that you're going to be leading, measuring what we value in action. Can you kind of just maybe give us an, a broad overview, without giving away too much we don't want to spoil it for everybody but a broad overview of what you're going to be talking about during that time and engaging with our partners?

Marshall Baker: Yeah, the session. You know, looking at the agenda, I'm personally incredibly excited to just be there in attendance to hear all the discussion and I feel like it does a great job. You know, hearing from students on what matters and hearing from different leaders, you see a wide variety of opinions and thoughts and philosophies on measurement. Yes, so I think this session is a place where we can kind of take a deep breath, and I'm an experiential learning guy so I you know, I believe we can take in all this information. But then how do we move the conference to action so that when we leave the conference sometimes measurement Theory and how we measure and all the philosophies of educ a and standardized testing, all of that is great, but this session is a chance to move that into action a bit. So what are some actionable steps and tools and processes that we could employ right when we get home?

So three big things. First, just addressing the elephant in the room that measurement is hard, yes, and you know I always say all data is bad data and bad is b period, a period, D periods, which is the best of available data. And I think in our world measurement is hard and I think that's what I pulled from my doctoral program is: we are in social science, we can only, we can't hold what we measure. We can only talk about our, we can only talk around it. Right, we're measuring constructs, we're not measuring the weight of an apple, we're measuring people's perception of the apple, and that's such a different game, such a different game. Yeah, so first just address, say you know, measurement is hard and so just owning that and giving ourselves some freedom to say chronic absenteeism is not a perfect measure, but it is one view of the phenomena we're we're looking at.

And how do we hold that in the right measure and right weight? Yeah, the second thing and the third thing are the two that we talk about all the time at. Parsec quality of implementation. So when we look at something we've done and we want to know if it worked, step one, we have no ability to learn if we don't know that we implemented it as intended. That's right and all of us, like you, know. You, Rachael, you've let you've LED Statewide interventions.

You've been a superintendent of a school. You've LED School sites. I've led a School. Site. I can't sit here and tell you that when I implemented some of my interventions they were done incredibly well the first year. You know, it's like we had a really great plan to Institute a program at one point and I look at the progression of that and like our implementation was okay and it improved over time.

But how do we monitor implementation? Because measurement's hard to do unless you know the treatment is effectively delivered as in the way it was intended. Yeah, and then the last thing is: once we know and we have information about. Implementation. Then what are the results that we're looking at? What are we measuring?

It doesn't even have to be results. What are we measuring and how do we measure that to know if what we're doing is effective? And what I love about this session that we'll bring out that you know has found its way into Clarity pretty deeply is: you can look at qualitative measures, ask the people, ask the students: do you like the fill in the blank program? What has helped you in this Fillin the blank program? Do you think fill-in the blank program is working? And how do we pull that data in and hold that at equal weight to a test score to understand there may be ways it's working that aren't showing up quantitatively and that may be really informative to how you operate.

So the last piece is just rethinking what we measure. Yeah, and not putting test scores as the only measure, but thinking about how do we pull in and inform our teams and talk to each other about what's working in ways they go beyond the traditional measurements. Yeah. So those are the three things and I'm excited to kind of just lay some questions out in front of the room and let there be dialogue about how do we measure these tough things. So that's the core of the session.

Rachael Maves: Yeah, and I think what you're going to be talking about, Marshall, is so vitally important in schools and districts. We, when I was at the County office and we were I was first jumping into leading a lot of this improvement work. One of the things that we would talk about is I coined it the white binder effect, and I think you'll quick, you're already shaking your head. Yet the because that we have this cycle within education where we bring on an initiative, we spend a ton of money, we put everybody through the training and, of course, everybody gets a white binder right and it goes on your shelf and then at the end of the year, we're like what? Oh, you have a white binder. Of course you do.

Yes, exactly perfect. How can you not? And this is actually an initiative from a state like the ill. Being, I mean, and right and that's, and it resonates so deeply with Educators, because that is the site, and then it doesn't lead to change. But instead of like stopping and really interrogating the why behind it which is what you're bringing forward to this group around this implementation and qualitative data and how do we actually look and stop and look at that piece, instead we just jump to scrapping it and then we bring on the next thing and then we go through the cycle again and it just perpetuates this feeling of we're never hitting the results that we want. Everybody's exhausted and tired and I think it's more about and you and I talk about this often I think it's more about the system that we have in place to slow down than it actually is about that we're not doing the right things to lead to change for kids.

So I just can't underscore how important the piece that you're going to be highlighting and engaging with this group is during the session.

Marshall Baker: Yeah, and you and I Rachael it's kind of funny on this podcast because we talk about it all the time. Yeah, I go back to Improvement science. I just think about the learning to improve book, which I'm always looking at. There's a quote on page 113. Such is the pattern of change in public education: Implement fast, learn slow and burn Goodwill as you go. Yeah, you know, it's like so often that can be a pattern that I'm guilty of.

Yeah, so instead, how do we flip that where? If you start small, learn fast and grow at scale, that's it's Christmas, it's Christmas time and there are FedEx trucks everywhere. So everyone that is Pete, that is my very protective. Dog but I? How do we slow down? How do we start small, learn fast and grow at scale what works?

And I think that requires good measurement, yeah, I agree.

Rachael Maves: So, knowing our audience, Marshall, that we're going to be like in community with a bunch of school leaders, practitioners, can you give like what is one, just one, tangible takeaway that they will be able to leave and apply to? Context, new ways to measure things they've not been able to measure in the past conversations about.

Marshall Baker: I've never thought of measuring it that way, or that's a measure I haven't thought of. That's what I hope they can take away from the session is new quantitative and qualitative ways to measure things they really care about.

Rachael Maves: Yeah, that's exciting. So what are you most looking forward to? This is going to be your first summit with us, so what are you most looking forward to as you think about the upcoming Summit?

Marshall Baker: To be honest, the thing that just really gets me excited is for the adults in the room to sit down and get a notebook and listen to kids.

Rachael Maves: [speaker uncertain] Yeah, that's, that's the part I'm most excit.

Marshall Baker: I can't wait to hear to have a conference where the speakers and the session leaders are kids. Yeah, man, that's. I haven't been. I've been to one where kids are involved. Like in one room the youth are meeting and in the other room the adults are meeting, and even that is like applauded and that's great. But to have in the same room the adults in the chairs and the kids on the mic, that's, that's exciting.

Rachael Maves: Yeah, I agree that my and I've shared this with you, but last year, I mean, it was just such a profound time in just listening to their stories and that's what I appreciate that Baba always comes back to and how we start the podcast. How do we Elevate the stories, how do we humanize and put context to and create that space and voice to for people to actually hear it's and the kids just do such a marvelous job. They're so brave and being willing to come in and share that with us, I, yeah, I'm excited. I Echo that. Okay, so as we wrap up, I'd love to give you the final word for our listeners. Any Sage advice, thoughts to ponder.

What would you like to leave us with?

Marshall Baker: I always go back to you know this mural behind me is experiential learning. And over here you can't quite see it. A guy that I just Lov is Kurt Lewin, and he always says my favorite quote from him is: if you want truly to understand something, try to change it. And I think is you look at school systems that are identifying problems, working on them, constantly running iteration Cycles, allowing people to try things that fail, but then knowing that they failed. There's so much learning in that system. You show me someone who's instituted a lot of change efforts and Improvement efforts and I'll show you someone that really knows their system.

So that's what I'm excited about. When we talk about measuring what we value, it means you're learning and you're investigating and you know if what you're doing is working or not. So I'm excited to be around a bunch of people that know their systems because they're trying to improve it.

Rachael Maves: Yeah, so, Kurt Lewin for the win at the end.

Marshall Baker: [speaker uncertain] Yeah, I love that, though. Well done.

Rachael Maves: Thank you, Marshall, for your time today. I really appreciate this conversation.

Marshall Baker: Yeah, thanks same to you.

Rachael Maves: Parsec education is hosting the measure what we value Summit on February 5th through 6th in Fresno, California. Join us for impactful conversations on empathy, engagement, hard truths and more, alongside leaders like Shaka Booker, Rich sto, Diego Arambula, Marshall Baker and student speakers like Liliana Sanchez and Timmy aori. Tickets are limited, so make sure to secure your spot today. Get your tickets at parsecsummit.com.

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This transcript was created from the episode's captions and lightly edited for readability. It may contain small errors; please refer to the audio for exact wording.