Rachael Maves: Hi, I'm Rachael Maves and you're listening to the Getting Naked with leaders in education podcast, where we strip away the layers and get to the raw, unfiltered stories behind the leader shaping the future of Education. My guest today is Sarah Neville-Morgan, Deputy superintendent of Public Instruction in the opportunities for all Branch at the California Department of Education. Prior to joining CDE, Sarah served as the deputy director of program management at first five California, as well as child development consultant for rtt, ELC coordinator for California Department of Education and also served as the academic Child Development specialist at UC Davis. Sarah, thank you for joining me today at the Getting Naked with educational leaders podcast.

Sarah Neville-Morgan: Thanks, Rachael, so fun to be here.

Rachael Maves: I'm super excited for our conversation today and for all of the listeners. Sarah and I have a history of working together at CDE and all of the joys that brought us at the SC level, so it's just a pleasure to connect with you again, Sarah, and hear a little bit more, I think, from you. On a personal note, about some of your story, and we want to start with: why did you choose a career in education? I mean, of all the different Pathways that you could have chosen, why? Education.

Sarah Neville-Morgan: So I think, like many of us, it was a calling. From the very beginning. Both of my parents were Educators. We just grew up with education as this equalizer, as something that could create opportunities for everyone, and the first 5 years of my life were spent in South America so first Venezuela and after that Peru and really saw deep poverty and lack of access to education and both of my parents trying to help support increased education for a lot of young children who didn't have access to it. So returning to the United States just was part of, I think, an equity Journey for me. I went to a quaker College all about social justice and I actually thought I'd go more into early mental health and supporting families that way and just came to the realization that I wanted to be part of an educational system that truly created opportunities for all young children and, from that, created greater success for individuals.

And it wasn't determined by your ZIP code, by your birth, but really something that everybody could obtain.

Rachael Maves: I love that and I love that you oversee the opportunities for all Branch at CDE. Tell me a little. There's a little bit of a. Tell me a little bit about, like the, just the work that you're holding, because California, I mean one is it's the largest state in our country. The education system in California is just a bohemuth. I mean 6.2 million students that we have in California, 4.1 that we assess year-to-year, a thousand District, a th000 Charters, 10,000 schools.

I mean it is massive and you hold this piece that really aligns with your background and the work that you feel passionate about. Tell me just a little bit about opportunities for all Branch.

Sarah Neville-Morgan: Yeah, I feel so privileged, not only when I came in, was and was appointed by the superintendent, but just that ability to look at your portfolio and say this is the opportunities for all. So I have the early education division and that for California includes our Universal prek initiative, including transitional kindergarten, but also some targeted Universal for threeyear olds. I also have expanded learning, which is the after school or at of school time, some states call it so all of that. And in California we have expanded learning opportunities programs where we added 4 billion to our budget to create more universal access to that in our TK, which is that Universal prek through sixth grade, knowing that families and young children needed more full days in order both to access. More, not I'm trying to think of how I would call it, but parts of Education that really speak to not just social, emotional or who you are, but a lot of stem and gaming and fun activities that get them engaged in their schoolwork in a different way, but also knowing that most parents work. And so how do we create a public education system with work?

So really happy that California has invested in that. And then I have the multilingual support. So all of the El titles migrant, Refugee, newcomer students and we have invested not as much as I'd like, but some in dual language immersion programs and keep expanding more and more access to that. And then nutrition services: we have Universal meals in California with free breakfast and lunch available to all students really the equal. I Iz ing the fact that access to nutrition means that students can show up ready to learn. And then special education, which obviously all of us know special education and know that has a lot with it.

And so we say in the opportunities for our branch that we start early, ensure that students have access to high quality instruction before after intercession. All of that. We address inclusion and supports for multilingualism and ensure that our students are ready to learn by making sure they have access to nutritious me.

Rachael Maves: So just a few small things that you're holding.

Sarah Neville-Morgan: But when you, I pinch myself. When you get to be part of a state that's launching Universal pre, that's launching Universal meals, and you're part of that leadership team making decisions, helping support your local education agencies, it truly is a phenomenal opportunity.

Rachael Maves: Yeah, it is a different lens, I think, when you're looking at shepherding, really that work across an entire state district I think is hard enough, but then you expand that and it's just exponential. So, Sarah, I know you were at the department when the pandemic hit and you've kind of been that through line at the department as we went into recovery from the pandemic and learning acceleration and really trying to figure out what is this next step look like for us as a state. I'd love to hear from you, like what keep keeps you up at night and the conversations that you're having with our district Leaders, with teachers, with Educators, the research that's coming out, the work that you're holding. What is it that keeps you up at night?

Sarah Neville-Morgan: There's multiple things that keep me up at night. So trying to think through, I think just overall and this is beyond education as well, but feels like it sits deeply in education and with our students is a lack of shared connection and recognition of humanity. So that time apart, that lack of trust that happened, the more divisiveness I think it's really felt in our students, in our teachers, in our schools, in that lack of shared humanity and support. I think the lack of trust and public education in our system now we're seeing School boards, Educators, just all over the place sort of a lack of respect, support, different ways to dismantle that trust. All of those components of public education. So I think that's a lot of it and, as we look at our students and our students who went through a lot, there's a lot of chaos, a lot of trauma and I think they're still holding that as they move out and it's harder to learn when that is still part of who you are and really working through that with them, and that schools need to change, that our school system needs to look different to really reflect what our students, their families and the communities need.

So, across all of that, I think we're we all struggle with all right, we know that we need to address learning, recovery and we need to make sure that students have this whole sense of support as they move forward, and teachers are really stretched and stressed too. So it just overall it feels like there's a lot of trauma that needs to be worked through.

Rachael Maves: Still, yeah, I appreciate you saying that because I think it's. It's true. The part especially around this lack of shared connection and this divisiveness that we just feel as a whole across Society, how can it not impact kids and how can it not then impact education? And what does that mean and look like then for our Educators that are also swimming in that space? I think about how, even from when I was in the classroom, what is being asked of Educators has changed, just almost like we see these gaps that are happening and then it's just layered on and layered on, and layered on and layered on, and now we have this system that, like: what is that role? What are we doing well?

What aren't we doing well? Where do we focus?

Sarah Neville-Morgan: [speaker uncertain] I think you're raising a lot of great questions around all of. This.

Rachael Maves: Yeah, when you think about ways that to move forward, what are one or two ways that you feel like if we just did this or inserted this with into the system, it would have a massive impact in areas?

Sarah Neville-Morgan: Well, I wish there were a magic wand and I wish it was just one or two. I worry that we actually have to pull levers all over the place to really address it, and it's hard for people to think through multiple levers that have to all move together, sort of like a gear system, to make it work. But fundamentally, we have to reach, rebuild that trust, which means rebuilding relationships in a genuine, authentic way, and those relationships are all of those levels that you were bringing up before. So it's not just the relationships with our students, but it's with their families, it's with the community in which our schools reside, it's with the teachers, it's with people who are on our school board. So all of these trusts and then just the general public, so they understand what does it mean to be a teacher, an educator, what is the skill set, the value in public education as we move forward? And so, in that relationship, building in trust, I truly think that Community Schools and models like Community Schools, where it's not just a local Education Agency on its own but working with your partners in a community to create and respond to what that Community needs, is a strong way for us to move forward and to have families engag in schools in a new way and feel like they actually have a place in that school, that their voice is helping activate and move forward on pieces of it.

So, Community Schools and those Partnerships, and then data, and you and I share that love of data. I think that's why we bought it in the first place. So, using data to drive cycles of continuous Improvement and more iterative rapid Cycles, not having to wait multiple years, but really looking at your data, looking at the community data, your District, your school, the class and your individual student data. We sometimes have data that the teachers in those classes don't ever get access to. Yeah, right, so the student moves out of that system and then that data is never used to reflect and see what was working for my class, what wasn't working. Where do I need to change what we're doing?

So that data so we can do things like: hey, what's going on with our Universal prek? We have all these English Learners we're starting to dual language immersion programs. How well are they excelling? What does that mean for the rest of our English Learners in our community? As we look at struggles around literacy and math right now what's working, what's not and really driving that and going back to the rebuilding trust and Community, looking at the whole child in the data, so we really look at areas of Behavioral Health and needing experts to help do that. I think teachers get a lot put on them.

Teachers are there to educate and so how do we free teachers up to do why they came into this, to let them do what they studied, and we're bringing that community in to help support those components that need more deeply. That doesn't mean that teachers shouldn't be able to support some of it, always going back to, like that multi-tiered system of support, what do we all need and what can we all hold a piece of? But there are layers up and I really think we need to bring in more experts as part of both looking at data and the community model that allow teachers to truly be teachers.

Rachael Maves: Sarah, I can't underscore that enough or clap enough for that of this piece around data and how do we know what's working and what's not? And then that wraparound, community supports like we can't do this by ourselves. So who do we engage and who are those strategic partners and what does that mean and look like in a an organized way and yet different within every Community? You know, I love to hear a little bit about, because you're coming from such unique lens serving at the state level. When you think about those two components, what do you see the role of the state in supporting that work?

Sarah Neville-Morgan: I think it's both the policy components and the Investments. So trying to look at where funds are coming in through the state and federal budget process and then prioritizing in weaving. We give so much in these siloed buckets and then schools have too much that they're trying to implement. So if we can weave things together more and show the integrated nature, I think that helps build forth a community school, that it's all of these things and you can have all of these components working together. But I think this: that at the sea level we need to do a better job around showing that systems integration and creating less discreet pots but more integrated components for that. And then the, not just the policies but the best practices and the guidance and how we uplift those.

And then our technical assistance, even down to our monitoring, and we talk a lot about Transforming Our monitoring and we're looking at starting with our early childhood part and our Universal pre. So what data is coming in and how we're reusing that data to reflect on our students with disabilities and where they are. So if we have really low LR, least restrictive environment. That goes back to US Department of Ed. What policies are we putting in place to support more inclusion? And then, how are we looking at our technical assistance to coach people to success as we look at their data, and how are we making sure, as we, that we disaggregate it?

So we're looking at race, we're looking at other components around children as we look at something like inclusion and LR. So all of those pieces, I wish each state has different pieces. So, living in California, we are local, so we don't get to set some policies or move forward with here's the model we're going to use for literacy, let's say, or math, but we can Elevate. Here are the components that you should all use. So we just did something around our preschool to third grade initiative and we're always trying to elevate that. Our children, our students, need that continuity and so it's really important, if you're investing in upk, to make sure your kindergarten first, second, third have coherence across them, and so creating visuals that help, creating toolkits that say: here's play based learning, that helps bring the joy into learning, that really needs to be there in first grade, that really needs to be there in second.

And as you look at curriculum and as you look at components that your teachers need, here's some pieces to be mindful of so we can do that right. Here's our graphic. Here's things we can. Webinars. Other states can push out more than we can, and that's something I always struggle with believing in local, especially when we look at community and also thinking there are some things that the state actually needs to come in and help support, which both alleviates, I think, the pressure on the alas that might be getting a lot of other components, but also can create a stronger investment. A look at the data, a look at really paying attention to what the science is telling us and what research is driving.

Rachael Maves: Yeah, I, you know. I think what you're sharing is critical, one around two things. One is that role in elevating best practice and what does the research say to be able to not push in but guide and offer that guidance and Frameworks as educators are trying to figure out, like what is the best way in which we Shepherd our system locally. And then to this piece around data. I mean that part I just find so critical around and necessary that I think it actually is a huge gap in a massive State. How do we pull and utilize and leverage one, the data that we have, but two, in the places that we don't?

What would it look like to really invest in cowps in a whole different way so that we can get some data to inform some of the policy decisions that we're making and bring it back to that analysis of is it having the desired effect? It's so critically important and especially as we're heading into where we are with the funding. I mean we know that the Esser funds now are going to be completely gone as of September. Those funds either are encumbered and spent or they're going back to the federal government. Just looking at and hearing a little bit of the conversation in California about where funding currently is, I mean being able to choose that return on investment of those initiatives that are actually moving the needle is going to become even more critically important than ever before.

Sarah Neville-Morgan: Yeah, and needing the data both at the state level and even within state agencies. It's hard to access your own data and it's hard to share the data. So data it goes back to that trust. How do we trust and put up safeguards but use data for good so it really does inform those Investments, those policies, those Reflections, and truly it's everything from our monitoring to our conversations with Department of Finance and the legislature, to our testimonies. And then how are we building out the programs? Are rfps, what do they contain in them that people are responding to, and how are we elevating what we know works?

And we actually need to pay attention to what doesn't work as well.

Rachael Maves: Yes, yeah, 100%, And being able to communicate that out too I think that's the other critical piece is how do we then share with the broader community so that there's, I think, an understanding across the board of what's working and what's not?

Sarah Neville-Morgan: We were worried about that with the launch of universal prek in California, and one of the areas that doesn't usually get invested in is the research and evaluation. That hardly ever is part of what is given to us in a budget and we actually often don't get the authority to ask for data and evaluations and components. So what we did with upk is we set up a research design team and we invited various research Partners from across the state, even some from out of the state, and not every week, but at least twice a month. We have researchers come together and practitioners who are implementing it to discuss. Hey, we were looking at this part of coaching in some of these prek classrooms. We wanted do a proposal to get funded.

What does everybody think about this type of proposal? What would we need to change? What would be value? And they're asking each other what would be a value how do we partner? It has been so fabulous and I love the fact that we have a research design team. That is a table that creates an inside outside partnership across that space.

Rachael Maves: Yeah, that's, and it speaks very highly of your leadership, Sarah, in this, because I was at the dep department when all this went through and this was part of your vision around how do we work within the parameter that we have to still do this work really well and ensure that we're learning from it. So kudos to you for the way that you've shepherded this, yeah. So final question: what question in education, are we not asking that we really should be?

Sarah Neville-Morgan: Oh goodness, this one feels so loaded with so many things. One of the big ones, I think, is schools. I worried that we'll revert back to exactly how things were prep pandemic and not move forward in a real way. So it's, it's. What does our public education system need to do to produce the future Workforce? Yeah, and to stay competitive, and I don't know if we're always paying attention to what are the needs in 5, 10, 15 years?

And then, what are our coursework? What is our content? Is it reflective to really support them? Even our grades, like: do we have the right gradings? Do we need a 12th grade? Does dual enrollment mean that we actually should be supporting more and more students to be in a different place?

How does that work together? And liking some of those transformative pieces like dual enrollment, but what are we learning? So I think a lot of those questions are around: what are we learning? What is the promises of this and transparency on that? What doesn't work? Yeah, I talk a lot to my team about sold a story and like how do we make sure we're paying attention to what's working and not working so we aren't continuing to be sold stories so we don't keep generations of kids from success, but really pay attention to the data and what's working from everything, from what worked in the charter school movement and what didn't work.

So if that was the transformative piece, where was it successful and where wasn't it? CTE path: whatever our CTE pathways are really working to create true occupations that students then can leave and Thrive and which go nowhere. So and then in building our own Workforce and our educator Workforce, what's working around those Workforce pipelines? How are we ensuring that we really have a diverse, multilingual? Workforce that can support our students in learning, and the best way multi- stranded approach. As you're thinking through this, what are we asking or what should we be?

Rachael Maves: I appreciate it, Sarah, and I just appreciate your, the way that you're thinking about this and the work that you're doing on behalf of the educators in the students in California. So thank you. My guest today has been Sarah Neville-Morgan, Deputy superintendent of public instructions and the opportunities for all Branch at the California Department of Education. Thank you, Sarah, for joining me today on the Getting Naked with leaders in education podcast.

Sarah Neville-Morgan: Thanks so much for having me, Rachael, very fun.

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This transcript was created from the episode's captions and lightly edited for readability. It may contain small errors; please refer to the audio for exact wording.