Rachael Maves: Hi, I'm Rachael Maves and you're listening to the getting real with leaders in education podcast, where we strip away the layers and get to the raw, unfiltered stories behind the leaders shaping the future of Education. My guest today is Jannelle Kubinec, CEO of WestEd. As WestEd's chief executive officer, Jannelle brings over 24 years of experience transforming out outcomes for children, youth and their families through research, policy and technical assistance. Prior to becoming WestEd CEO in October just recent of 2023, Jannelle served for 12 years in various leadership roles at WestEd, including leading major federally funded centers, driving major policy changes related to Early Learning and K-12, funding and accountability systems, and building and strengthening operational systems at WestEd. Prior to WestEd, Jannelle served as associate vice president of school Services of California, principal at MGT of America Amica and Senior fiscal and policy Analyst at the California legislative analysts office. Jannelle, thank you for joining me today on the getting real with educational leaders podcast.

Jannelle Kubinec: Well, thanks, Rachael, it's a pleasure to be with you.

Rachael Maves: Well, I'm excited for our conversation today, always excited to catch up with you. We want to start just by giving you the space to share why education? I know you are just such a brilliant thinker. You really understand systems. You have such diverse perspectives. What Drew you to?

Education.

Jannelle Kubinec: Yeah, it's almost like, I think, the accident or maybe fate. I started out my college and early work career in the area of science so I worked for NASA and biotech startups and it felt like intellectually great. But then I'd go in like somebody would say, what do you do? And I'd start to talk about and they'd zone out right away and it made me realize that like in my sense of like purpose in life. It was really important that I felt there was a connection to what made sense to people and what made a difference to people, and so, you know, finding my way into education policy in particular was just like this dream world of like this is a perfect fit for being able to use analytical skills to think about problems that make a difference to people and lives, and so I have not looked back in that. Almost 30 years of time in is saying, like you know, getting to work on things like what's the best way to fund schools, what's the?

What does it mean to support professional learning for teachers, and how do you manifest change? What does it mean to ask for data, use data and then transform instruction with data. So I've been able to work on all sorts of what I'll say are important to me and, I hope, important to the impact I seek to have through education, and I think, ultimately, we're all products of education and the better it is, the better we are. So that's just be. You know, something that really for me I know personally has made a difference in my life.

Rachael Maves: I love that last thing that you said: the better education is, the better we are. So policy isn't the typical track that brings people into education. Tell me, just unpack that a little bit for me, like what was that first experience with educational policy that you thought, yes, this is where I want to be, and what is it about policy that really drives you?

Jannelle Kubinec: So, I realized while I was having my early career in the scientific field, is I love the scientific method? Right, it's very like: you do the experiments, you have a question you're seeking answers to, and if the experiment doesn't work, you do it again and you try the next thing, and if it does, then you move on to the next area of inquiry. And I feel like the world of policy analysis is like that it's. It's a let's think about what we're trying to fix and let's try something oruse the data, figure it out, talk to people, and it's a way for me, in a real social context, to think about how to use the skills I have which you know, started out very quantitative to like things that I think have social impact, and I am a strong believer in public education as a social good. And so the ability to get into policy, you know, and particularly I started out in education, Finance policy, so it was like also big picture, it was thinking about big systems. When I started my career in policy, my sister was starting a career as a teacher and so we would have really interesting exchanges around you know, I'm working at the state level is how do we make a budget and what's it going to mean to education?

And she's telling me that doesn't matter, I didn't get a raise and I have to go to a school site council meeting and I'm like, oh, that's your opportunity to shape how these resources get used, and she'd glaze over. So that was really grounding. That was really grounding for me to say this is a real teacher who's in my family and I'm thinking I'm doing important things and she doesn't care right and she or she thinks it's just so abstract that, and so I feel like I've had a nice sort of reality check at times around it's. It's not just be the good thinker, but it's also be the believer in what the system can hold, how who's holding that, where the agency lies in the system and how to affect that through the skills I have. But it actually has to be done in combination with others that you know have other skills around. You know what does it mean to support learning and what does it look like to you know actually lead schools, and so I feel like I've been able to form really good Partnerships over the years to bring out what I can offer and to put that in places.

They make a difference.

Rachael Maves: I love that and I think that what you described, that discrepancy isn't the right word, disconnect probably is a better word between the Statewide policy but then what is actually concretely happening within the classroom and how these intersect and the importance of it. And I remember when I was a superintendent serving on the small school districts panel, that would provide feedback to the state, and that was my first time where I caught that bug, like you, where I thought, oh my gosh, there's this whole other world and how do we think deeply and enact policy for good that leads to a strong implementation and touches the classroom in a really important way versus what I mean? We've seen what bad policy looks like and the ripple effect that it causes. So I love that. I love I think it's really important and price something that we don't talk about enough in education.

Jannelle Kubinec: Well, I think there's sort of a presumption that if somebody let's call it in the hierarchy higher up, so often the state says you should do something or says this is what we have resources for, there's a sense of, oh, they must be right, I must be missing something. And I often say to folks, like you know, at the state level, we're just taking a blunt kind of estimation of what you need and ultimately, what do you need, how do you want to do it, and don't presume that we have the right conception of it, and so be willing to put forward your practice. And I feel like that's been just. You know, a real opportunity in my career is to be in that intersect of what's Happening locally to what's happening in the state and to be somewhat of that Communicator, translator, because I think we ultimately need a system that there's a sense of interplay between local practice and state policy and state policy and local practice, and a lot of this is like, you know, we're in education, so it's not like we pause and stop educating. It's the planes flying and we're trying to, you know, retrofit some pieces to it. So there's just a, you know it's a hard environment to make change.

I think it's a hard environment to like even have the moments where you can say: I'm taking a pause and gonna think about this. Some we're just such in a do mode across, you know, much of our work.

Rachael Maves: Yeah, that's right. And so let's transition to that next question, because I think that it ties into, as we're thinking about, the education landscape as it currently exists. What keeps you up at night. I mean, we've just had massive impacts to educa, K-12 education the last three years and I think it's resonating deeply with everyone. And what is that for you as you think about it?

Jannelle Kubinec: Yeah, I think for me, and I'll just I'm taking take a liberty here and say I actually fall asleep, just fine, it's that I wake up every morning like, oh, it's like let's, let's, like it's so. What wakes me up in the morning and gives me some sense of urgency and purpose is, I think there's two things, and this is really a post. Some of it's pre-pandemic and I think has been. You can see it in a different way with post-pandemic is first off, it's what I see as what have been persistent gaps in Opportunities and outcomes, and they're absolutely tied to race and, to some degree, income. We knew that pre pandemic and what we found in the pandemic was higher levels of disengagement, lower levels of performance and on those lines of race and income, and so we see those. And now we talk about, you know, learning loss, we talk about accelerating learning, we talk about all these things and it's no different actually, in underlining population and underlining areas than what we had pre- pandemic.

But guess what? Those gaps are bigger.

Rachael Maves: [speaker uncertain] That's right.

Jannelle Kubinec: So that's on one dimension. I worry that we have yet to fully recover for what it means to truly address what are important gaps. To close, I think the other thing is the people, the tool that we saw taken during the pandemic on teachers and their sense of like. I'm at home and I'm trying to teach and I have my kids at home and I have lots of things I'm trying to do, and you know, I think true, for most of our teachers, they got into this because of the relationships they build with students. That's right, and the pandemic really made it challenging for students to have relationships with their teachers, to have relationships with their students and their colleagues, and students have relationships with each other, and I think we are bearing you know we are still we have residual stress and strain from that, and I worry that. You know just as we've looked, and you know the workforce has changed and we talk about this.

You know, like people working from home. Well, guess what? That's not how Education Works, right? So there's this dimenstion of like. We're back to the same mode of what working looks like education and the world, though, has changed some. So what's education looking like?

I think, for the workforce. The other thing I'm concerned about is, you know, we've seen this too with higher education, so people are going and saying, well, is it really worth, like, paying for a degree and all the things I have to do? Maybe I'll get a certificate, maybe I'll you know go into this apprenticeship or internship process. In teaching, we've largely held to a model that is bolted on to higher ed: you get your 4E degree, you get your, you know, your credential, your Masters, and you move through a stepand column process for most of our salary schedules, and so I also worry about the workforce, in that we have committed to a system that itself is having challenges with thinking about how it's going to evolve. You've seen some of this, with online education programs coming out of, you know, some universities, more of the private universities taking on students more remotely. Are we really evolving higher education in a way that builds for a vibrant, sustainable Workforce?

You know our schools of Education around the country as I've talked to deans of Education they're shrinking, yeah, so these Traditions that we've held are not quite holding up and some of that was the pressures of the pandemic and we're having to evolve and I really think we need to pay attention to that. We will. We are losing pipelines of kids. You know they're op and out. We see chronic absenteeism rates go up and we're we're losing pipelines of teachers.

Rachael Maves: Yeah, and you know, I think similar to what you were sharing about the students and the gaps that we were seeing persistently with the students, some of the same issues we were seeing with teachers in the teacher pipeline. But I think what you're really putting your finger on it is that the pandemic exacerbated all of that. What we saw as these cracks have become massive chasms and we have to figure out a way to address that. And you said something that I wanted to come back to, Jannelle, just quickly about. For students, that and for teachers, I would say we're, we're seeing the residual stress and strain from the pandemic and as you're because I know you're a bit of a data won too as you're looking at the data, where do you see that manifesting itself?

Jannelle Kubinec: Yeah, I think you see that in, like, chronic absenteeism rates going up. I think you see that in the shortages we're faced with classrooms and the you know we're, we're not fully staffed in the way that we want to be. I mean, we're right now, you know I'm in California and we're really pushing on apprenticeships as a pathway, right, and why is that? Because you want to get people early in their learning and then start career. But I think that you know you also see this in the ways that students are building relationship with each other. I hear this repeatedly, I mean.

So this is some of the school climate data. This is the. You know the observations that we're making about students sense of Engagement and purpose in school. We are still trying to rebuild some of the social fabric that makes School part of community and that's because school was part of home and, if you wanted it or not, so that sense of optionality I think we still have to get over.

Rachael Maves: Yeah, so, as you're thinking about next steps and what that landscape looks like, to move forward, what do you think are, like, the most promising practices that are starting to emerge to address some of the issues that you've just laid out?

Jannelle Kubinec: Well, so I think you know one is: let's attend to what learning engagement looks like, right, like what does it mean to you know? And I feel like we have to get past, like, if we want teachers to be treated as professionals which I do believe they, that is why they're here then let's not give them everything to say. And read the script, right? I mean, I think that notion of creative agency to meet standards really has somewhere been lost in some of our educational programs. It's like, you know, we need teachers to know they matter, and they matter not because they can follow a script or a pacing guide, but they matter because they bring what makes learning personal, which is both their attention, it's their creativity, it's their minds and their care and concern and their heart for students. So I really think about, as we move forward, if we could just keep asking ourselves one question and it applies to students, it applies to teachers, it applies to leaders and it applies to families: why do you come to?

School. And the answer should be: well, I come to school because and you know what is it. And if somebody says, well, I don't know why I come to school or I don't like coming to school, then what do you do to turn that why into I want to come to school? So I think you can ask students what makes you want to come tool school. And for some of them it's like: oh, I love the food, right. I mean, I've heard this from high school students that have been able to contribute to like what they want: to see the food truck be on their campus, right?

Or I love my sports team, or I love my teacher, or I really like math. Yes, so are we asking kids enough? Why do you come to school? And then, attending to those factors, and when you see that disengagement where it's like I don't want to come to school, well, why not? I just feel like I can't read, or I feel like I get picked on, or I feel like nobody pays attention to me. We now have the answers to what that means and I would ask and I think we under attended this asking teachers, why do you come to school?

And for some of them they go well, I come for the kids, I love my kids and you know, if you ask them, well, what would make it better for you? They go well. I just feel like all this paperwork, or I feel like all of these assessments like, so then, how do we Ascend to that so that, hey, assessments could be meaningful to you? What would it make it? So you go, wow, I like this assessment. Or I like the fact that I'm part of a teacher team.

Yeah, and I think the same for parents: why are you sending, why are you know, taking your kid to school? And if they say, well, I don't know, like, I don't know what that school is doing, and really, for the most part, they go well, because it's really important that they learn. So let's seize on that, because what we're getting in those answers are the assets that we hold. It's the inspiration that we can feed and it's the foundation of what can, I think, truly Center us on what makes schools great and who makes them happen.

Rachael Maves: Part of what you said that I appreciate is that it's it's not an either or in that feedback response, because I think that sometimes when we hear something like well, it's too much paperwork or all of these assessments, then it's like, okay, well then, let's just stop doing all that versus right, actually, these are really meaningful. So what does it look like to be able to incorporate it deeply into your practice, so that it you're engaging with it in a way that gives you what you need as an instructor to then support your students? It's not a zero sum game.

Rachael Maves: Yeah, tell me a little bit about the work pipeline, because you mentioned apprenticeships. Do you feel like, as something that gives you urgency in the morning, not keeps you up at night, this model? Do you feel like it has a lot of promise and continuing to build out that Pipeline, and is it hitting what you're thinking about and expanding the way that we're thinking about teacher preparation?

Jannelle Kubinec: I think it's going to be helpful. I don't think it's going to be sufficient, right, and I. You know, I'm fortunate to have a WestEd board that has it's all practitioners, including some teachers, and at one of our recent board meetings, one of our teachers, who was a former teacher of the year for his State, said out loud. He goes: hey, I have the best job in the world and I want all my students to be teachers because I have the best job in the world. And when he said that, I know I personally had a moment where I said really, oh, wow, and how do you? And he really said that with sincerity, right, and what he was saying was: I want that to be so, because I can make a difference in who becomes a teacher.

Next and I was trying to think like gosh: when's the last time I heard a classroom teacher exhibit that kind of joy for what they do? And what does it make? What are we doing? What can we do? So that's really evident to, because I actually think the pathway, sure the formality of you will become a teacher. We are not starting early enough.

We are not starting with the inspiration that the teachers at the fourth, fifth, sixth grade can be providing to kids around. I love my job. You should be a teacher, right, and some of that has to do with the conditions of pay, some of it has to do with condition of support, some of it has to do with the pathways to profession. So are we feeling so confident that this is the best job in the world that we should be creating those Pathways early on so that we're inspiring kids and then truly creating the professionalism, the support, the viability of this being a career path? And I think ultimately, you know this gets to. You can look at the International comparisons of where we pay and place teachers in a social structure.

We can do better by, that's right, and we've had experiments on pay for performance. We've had experiments on, you know change conditions. We've, and ultimately it's it's probably you know, a combination of you know more. You know six, 10 things that we have to start doing in places and again, we have pockets of this happening in districts around the country. But it is a mindset, I think, more than the machine, of how you produce. That's right.

You know teachers for the future.

Rachael Maves: Yeah, I love that. The it's more of a mindset than a machine. That should be. That should be a t-shirt somewhere. Jannelle, WestEd can add that. Yeah, so just out of curiosity and I know we're getting close to wrapping up here pretty soon, but trailer Bill language is out as someone who's watching policies is there anything that's standing out to you as we think about ways to move forward, that has piqu your interest and that you're paying close attention to this cycle?

Jannelle Kubinec: Yeah, I mean, I think we're continuing to see things around. How do we are seeing ourselves comeing into more limited resources? So how do we make sure we're attending to the big problems and challenges we still have? So those things I'm talking about with equity and opportunity and you know, and do we tune that around career? Do we tune that around Community? Do we tune that around, you know, the ability to write better plans.

I mean, all those things are you're starting to see in place, and I think we're looking at it as like, how do I make that happen without having more money to give? And I think there is a challenge. It's that constant challenge of am I asking you to do more with less or I'm asking you do different with less? And I think that you know this is I'm I'm looking around the state and something that I haven't seen explicitly addressed that I do think we have to be considerate of and this is a national issue is the average superintendent's tenure is just getting shorter and shorter. That's right, and so, again, this could be a pandemic kind of effect. But you know, I was recently with a group of superintendents from LA county and was just struck by the longest standing superintendent that was in this group had been in their position, for I think it was 11 or 12 and more than half of the group was saying, well, I just started this year, I just started last year, yeah, and it's just, it's, it's, it is noticeable, it is true, around the country.

And so while we look at some of these legislative changes and where they're coming, you have a whole lot of people that this is their first rodeo on this stuff. This is their, you know, and they're doing it. In an environment where we're asking people to do this, you could feel like doing more with less or doing differently with less, and they weren't the ones that created what's there. So I think there's a adoption, implementation leadership challenge that has yet been to, is yet to be addressed, and I think we have known I was involved with getting down to fact studies years ago and one of things we know is that Financial stability of a district is very much correlated with the tenure of the chief business official, which is very much correlated with the tenure of the superintendent, right, and so these are all things that are interconnected as we look at what makes for a high per forming district, and some of it lies in stability of leadership and the predictability of resources.

Rachael Maves: Yeah, stab, and I think we don't talk about stability of leadership enough. Honestly, it's right now we have a lot of talk about the teacher Pipeline and not to say that's not critical and something that we need to focus on, but there's this massive space here with our educational leaders where, anytime that they come in, I think that you hit on it there's this ripple effect, an unintended consequence of New Vision, new leadership, new churn within a system, and it leads and perpetuates almost the cycle of exhaustion because it never, the system never gets to settle anywhere, right? So when you're saying how do we do different with less, it is this constant state of more, whether it's policy, Vision, leadership, changes a lot of those disruptions within those systems. Final question, Jannelle, and this isn't meant to be a discussion piece, it's just to give like food for thought for our listeners what question in education are we not asking right now that we really should? Be.

Jannelle Kubinec: So I'll give you a big question for me, which is: I think we talk a lot about transformation and reform and yet we have structures that I would say you know can. Is it really that we are trying to transform in education or we just trying to optimize? Excuse me, and I look at. You know, when we look at how we use time, how we use people, there's a lot of rules and regulations, and so much of getting better at something or different at something is about changing those major systems, and. Structures. And so are we truly in a position to transform, and or are we in a position to optimize?

And I don't say that in a critical way other than a like hm, I wonder you know. And what does then transformation take? That's right, and have we made progress in optimization? Are we using time well? Are we using people well? Are we using resources?

Rachael Maves: Well, yeah, I love that. I mean it's. It is a good question that I don't think any. That we're asking right now is that when we say that we want transformation, have we actually created the conditions in the space for transformation? Yeah, well, thank you, Jannelle. My guest today has been Jannelle Kubinec, CEO of WestEd.

Thank you for joining me today on the getting real with leaders and education podcast.

Jannelle Kubinec: Well, Rachael, thank you for having.

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This transcript was created from the episode's captions and lightly edited for readability. It may contain small errors; please refer to the audio for exact wording.