Rachael Maves

I'm Rachael Maves and you're listening to the Getting Naked with Leaders in Education podcast, where we strip away the layers and get to the raw, unfiltered stories behind the leaders shaping the future of education. My guest today is Babatunde Ilori, Chief Executive Officer of Parsec Education. Founded in 2023, Parsec Education's mission is to improve and transform K-12 education and student outcomes through modernizing, evaluating, improving and standardizing the way schools view, interpret and respond to data.

Prior to Parsec Education, Babatunde served as executive director of accountability and communications and director of performance management and internal communications for Madera Unified School District, and director of equity [?] and chief of staff for Fresno Unified School District. Babatunde, thank you for joining me on the Getting Naked with Educational Leaders podcast.

Babatunde Ilori

Yeah, thank you for having me.

Rachael Maves

We have to start with this name today. I know internally we wrestled and went back and forth: do we name it Getting Naked? Do we name it Getting Real? We threw around all these names and finally landed on Getting Naked. But you need to unpack that and give us the why behind it.

Babatunde Ilori

Yeah. So I would say that it kind of started off for me when I read a book titled Getting Naked by a guy named Patrick Lencioni. He writes a lot of business fables and he has an organization called The Table Group, and I'm a big fan of his. But anyways, I read this book and I was pretty transformed by his message, which was, ultimately, it's not literally getting naked, right, obviously. It's an analogy, but the whole idea is being radically honest, right, and transparent and vulnerable, and having humility, and having a sense of selflessness.

I mean, I think these are the types of things that we all should be doing, because it's just good things to do as a good human being on this Earth. But when we're talking about education, especially when we're talking about trying to radically transform education here in the United States, and particularly for students in the margins, right, students of color, African-American students, emergent multilingual students, or what we call English learner students in the state, we need to be honest. And it starts off with this idea of getting naked, being radically transparent, and I think that we don't do that enough. I feel like in education, we don't share what the elephant in the room is.

And I'll just give you an example of this, Rachael. I coach soccer. I love soccer, I'm a big fan. Two of my three kids play; I'm coaching both their teams right now, and I get to play a lot. And one of the things that happens when I play with my friends that are a little bit closer to my age, or some young adults, is you get into it, you say certain things, you joke around, and you're just playing. And one time recently, when we were playing, a person used the n-word. And what happened, which was an interesting moment for me, was that they didn't say it to me. Obviously I'm Black. It wasn't, "Hey," the n-word, to me; it was to a colleague on his team. In a weird way, it was just like, "Hey," and these people weren't Black, they were Hispanic and white, and it's a weird thing happening, I thought. And I called it out, and then another person called it out immediately. But then what ended up happening with the broader group was they were shocked that it was even called out.

The reason I share this experience, Rachael, is because I want to bring it back to education. I shared this with my kids, because I was playing soccer and I was about to coach them, and I said, "Hey, this kind of rattled me. This happened." And the kids all sat there and heard the story, and they were like, "Oh, wow." Then my daughter grabbed me and she goes, "You know, the n-word is being said rampantly at my school." I'm like, "What?" And she said, "Yeah, that's a normal thing, and they kind of try to not say it around me, but I know they're saying it." And I was like, "Really?" And apparently this is a rampant thing. I knew it was happening in Madera Unified, because it was being brought up by Black students. But then for my daughter to share that with me, it hit me in a more real manner. And it was like, why aren't we being more honest about these types of things? Why aren't we sharing the elephants in the room?

And how does that impact my daughter's ability to learn? How does that impact other Black students' ability to learn on campus? Do they really truly feel safe? Do they feel like they're welcome? Do they feel a sense of true belonging when the n-word is being rampantly stated? And I just want to sit there with that.

So, going back to your question about why Getting Naked: there is why we have to get naked in education, because we skip by these things as if it's not a big deal, and it really truly is. And it impacts in severe ways the educational abilities, particularly of students in the margins, that are feeling like no one cares about them.

Rachael Maves

Yeah. I think one of the things that I appreciate you bringing to this discussion continually is the story behind the why. And I want to, one, just kind of pause, and then maybe talk a little bit in a second about our conference. But before that: this is something that you've embraced and uphold and show leadership in, even within our company. Because I think it's one thing to say that this is important of educational leaders, but it's very different to say it and embrace it yourself in the way that you're leading as CEO of our company, and I see that every day in your leadership. Do you want to talk just a little bit practically about what that looks like within Parsec, and your expectation of how that's lived out with our team when we talk about getting naked?

Babatunde Ilori

Yeah, yeah. I mean, I think it's tough, because as a leader you want to pretend you know it all and have all the answers, and it's always perfect. Actually, it's the opposite for me. I'm always fumbling through my words. I feel like I make too many mistakes. But the one thing I try really hard to do is I try to be really honest with people, with where things are at, where my head is. I try to be really intentional about the why behind things, and I try to own up to my own mistakes, right, and be honest about that.

And one example was actually with you, Rachael, when we were talking about our leadership team and we were talking about bringing on another person on the team. And then you had brought up that, hey, we were bringing on a lot of males on the team. And initially, inside me, I don't think it was very apparent to everyone on the call, but inside me I was a little defensive. I was like, wait a minute, I'm trying to be intentional about diversity, and particularly women in leadership. I'm all about that. And when you shared that, initially inside I was like, oh man, I didn't see that. But that's exactly why it's so important for us to be surrounded with leaders that come from different backgrounds and different perspectives and will share a different lens on things, rather than having a vacuum of people that just come from your walk of life and how you grew up, et cetera. And it's like, holy moly.

And that's exactly why I was like, oh man. And then I shared that with you, right, Rachael. I was like, thank you for sharing that, because we need to be intentional about how we recruit. And that starts with how we find people outside of just our small locus of circle [?]. How do we broaden that, and be intentional about, hey, we want to bring in women leaders, not just for the sake of bringing on women leaders. It's because we're trying to radically transform education, and we need people from different backgrounds and perspectives to be at the leadership table.

And then, to connect that to the summit in particular, Rachael: one of the non-negotiables we had in our summit, which, with its theme, Measure What We Value, right, is what did we do? We highlighted and elevated student voice throughout the whole summit. And in particular, when you think about it being February 1st, we highlighted Black student voices, which is probably unheard of. And not only did we do that. The other thing we did, too, is it wasn't just student performances. I've gone to a lot of conferences where students are performing, which is great, I think that's good, I'm not trying to say it isn't. But I haven't been to a conference where students are keynoting or being the feature of a panel discussion, right? So those are the types of things that, again, are trying to model what we want to see within our organization. That's why our summit was focused on that. We really didn't have a lot of Parsec services or products we were highlighting, to be honest with you. It was really about giving it... no, seriously. I think actually some of our partners wanted to see a little bit of Parsec.

Rachael Maves

You're right. Yeah, yeah. And you know, Babatunde, as we talk about the summit, I want to pause just for a second and come back to the story that you shared about bringing up our hires and ensuring that we're starting to look for other women to serve on the leadership team. That's why I said the importance of the leader actually walking what they're talking about. And for my experience, and I've shared this with you, coming into this place, I heard you talk about that, and the reason I accepted the job at Parsec was when I came down for those few days, I watched that in action. I mean, even in just my visit, I saw it in action.

And then not long after that, I watched you and Eugene, Parsec's founder, kind of go toe-to-toe over some things, and it was a Getting Naked moment. It was you sharing how you felt; it was Eugene kind of pushing back. And I remember sitting there with my eyes wide, like, oh, what's going to come out of this? And I think the amazing part for me, that really resonated and clicked and then allowed me to be able to bring forward my thoughts in our meeting, was you guys came to this place of: yeah, okay, I heard you and I appreciate your feedback; and I heard you and I appreciate your feedback. And maybe at times we don't see eye to eye, but I still care about you and appreciate your lens, and we're going to walk forward together.

And that is just so clear, I think, in every discussion we have at Parsec: we don't have to come to the same conclusion, but we're in this together and we're going to continue to walk forward together, because that means more than being right. And I really have to give you kudos, Babatunde, because it's your leadership that has set that precedent with our team and organization, and I see that same determination in the summit.

So, for people who are listening, Parsec just had their very first summit. It was a wild success. We had 150 of our partners that were there and engaged and listening. And I want to come back to this place because I think it connects to the story that you just talked about: we have to address the elephant in the room. You created a Getting Naked moment for everyone in that space because you put students at the center. Can you just share a little bit, especially about that first student panel, some of the things that we heard in the space that you created that allowed these stories to be shared?

Babatunde Ilori

Yeah, definitely. So in preparation for the summit, I told the students... and then, you know, Angie Barfield, Dr. Barfield, is amazing. She has worked with Black students up and down the state of California, but particularly in the Central Valley. And I knew of her work because when I was at Madera Unified, we engaged with her to support us with really elevating student voices in Madera. And as we were prepping, I worked with Angie Barfield, particularly to connect with students in the Central Valley, and I said, "Hey, what I want to do is I want to elevate student voices, and particularly Black student voices, in our summit, and I want us to kick off the summit with an all-Black student panel."

And I told her this. I said that the way I want us to let the students know about what we're going to be talking about is: I want them to be real about things. I want them to feel free to share honestly and transparently about their experiences in our school systems. And I told Dr. Barfield that I don't think we've ever created an experience, in a conference setting, where adults in the system, educational leaders in the system, are coming to a summit to listen to Black student voices. This will be the first time ever, and if there is one, great; I want to encourage more of that. And I knew this would be different.

The thing that was challenging was to get the students to feel like people actually cared about what they had to say. And I told them, "I believe they do care." It's hard to believe it sometimes, but I told them, "I believe the adults in the system do want to hear what you have to say. They don't recognize what's really truly happening, and I think that this experience is going to change them. I think they're going to really respect what you're saying, empathize, and then, hopefully, it'll help them figure out ways to create better systems within their school systems."

So the students were basically hoping that people would listen, and they came ready to share. And I think that during the experience, I mean, if you were there, you know what was shared. There were tears in the audience, tears by the students. One of the students shared a story that I'll never forget. She shared a story where, basically, she had a favorite student, I'm sorry, a favorite teacher, in her high school, and she decided to wear her hair in a fro. Normally, apparently, she wore it maybe in braids, or maybe she straightened it, but she decided to wear it more naturally in a fro. And she came to school and her favorite teacher said, "Oh, I didn't know you had crazy hair," to her. And so you could just imagine how she felt in that moment. And the teacher had no clue, just no clue.

If you look at both perspectives, right, one person is extremely hurt by this; the other person has no clue.

Rachael Maves

They just hurt you. No clue.

Babatunde Ilori

Yeah. And this is the thing that we have to learn and realize in education: the perspectives, the different places people are coming from, are wildly different. And while that teacher didn't mean to do that, completely didn't mean to do that, that greatly impacted the ability for that student to learn in that moment. There were other stories that were shared, but that one in particular hit me, because, you know, I have my son and two daughters, and I could see that potentially even happening with my own kids in the system. And it's hard because, as a parent, now wearing my parent hat, how do I help my child navigate that?

And so, could you imagine if our teachers took seriously those things, like the cultural trainings and the professional development, and really just getting to know their students in their classes, right? That first week of school, when you're getting to know your students in the class. Could that have been prevented? Potentially, right? But it happened, and it's scarring. And now she feels like she's less than. She feels like she can't be her full, true self because of that, because literally her favorite teacher said that to her. And I just give that as an example.

And then, when we talk about measuring what we value, there's a story I share sometimes when we do our data capacity building sessions, Rachael. I have a picture I show of a class. It's a class of students and a teacher, and the teacher is a Black male teacher teaching a kindergarten class in New York City. Well, that kindergarten class just happened to be my kindergarten class. And I always share this with people because when I think about measuring what we value... his name is Mr. Smith. That was my kindergarten teacher, and what he instilled in our class were things like self-worth, right, things like a sense of belonging. I was an English learner in that class, by the way. He treated me with such honor and dignity and respect, and not just me, all the other students in that class. He built true relational capital with me. If you read Shane Safir's book, The Listening Leader, she describes that in detail, and that's what he was doing in that class with me and with the other students. And he made a transformative impact in my life to this day. I remember his class, and that was kindergarten. I don't really remember my first-grade class as much as kindergarten.

And it was helpful for me to see a Black male teacher. Not in kindergarten; I didn't realize that as a kid. But reflecting back, that was hugely impactful for me, in my life and my career. So I just want to share that. That's the power of student voices.

And so, Rachael, I'm going to ask you a question. I know it's supposed to be me, but I'm going to flip it. Do you remember what the kids stated?

Rachael Maves

I should have expected this.

Babatunde Ilori

Do you remember what the students, all of them, kind of stated as a theme? What's one thing that would be a big thing that could impact K-12 education in a positive manner? Do you remember what they said?

Rachael Maves

No...

Babatunde Ilori

They all said it. They all said: having more Black educators. Yeah, they intentionally said that, and it goes back to that intentionality, right, Rachael? Like me: I didn't see that. Hey, we have to have female leadership in our highest level of leadership at Parsec Education. We have to be cognizant of that as we're growing and as we recruit. The same thing has to be done in education.

And by the way, it's not just for the Black students. Everyone thinks, oh, it's just for the Black students. No, it's not just for the Black students. It's for the white students, it's for the Hispanic students, it's for the Asian students in the classroom. It's for the other students to see that Black teachers, Black leaders in education, exist, and they have value, and they are highly skilled and can educate you at the highest levels. It's for all the students to see that. That's the thing that people don't get sometimes. It's for all the students to see it.

Rachael Maves

I think exactly what you said, because it's not just for the Black students; it's for all of us to change that perception of who's engaged, who's participating, the leaders that we have within our society, and why that's so important. I think it's something that we don't reframe enough in our conversations, and it does a disservice, as we heard from the kids.

You know, the other thing that they kept coming back to: one of the young women said, "I want you to know, teacher, that I'm here, and I'm here to be excellent." And it was just this powerful moment for her to say, "See me. I want you to see me." And that's what I feel like those kids were saying, and all kids say, to a certain extent: I want to be seen, and know that I'm seen, within the classroom.

Babatunde Ilori

Absolutely. Yeah, that was a beautiful moment.

Rachael Maves

Yeah, it was. We didn't get to any of our four questions, but I do want to just end with the same question that I've asked everyone, because I am curious to hear how you would respond to this, Babatunde. What question in education are we not asking right now that we should be?

Babatunde Ilori

Oh, that's an easy one. That's an easy one. Are we measuring what we value? No, really: are we truly measuring what we value?

Rachael Maves

That you would say that!

Babatunde Ilori

Or are we trying to value what we measure? So, no, seriously. The reason I say that is that what gets measured gets done, right? And what we've relied on in education is insufficient instruments to truly measure what we value. So if we just stop at solely our insufficient instruments... and the beauty of it right now, Rachael, is that with this proliferation of technology, especially in the generative AI space, we can start to potentially, at scale, do things like performance assessments. Which, by the way, performance assessments, when created correctly, can greatly reduce bias in tests. We can get into all kinds of things about standardized tests and the biases built into them, but performance assessments, when done correctly, can actually be a great way of getting to measuring what we value.

And as employers, right, I always joke around and I say, I didn't ask you, Rachael, what was your test score in school? It's ridiculous.

Rachael Maves

I'm really glad you didn't.

Babatunde Ilori

But the reality is, I asked you about your leadership, right? Some of the big impact you've made across the state, et cetera. The projects you've led. That's what I'm asking you about. It's really a different form of performance assessment, and that's what we really care more about anyways. But it's harder to measure at scale; it's very costly. So this is why we resort to solely standardized tests, because it helps, at scale, to at least assess things like English language arts and mathematics, and maybe science and maybe other areas potentially. The AP exams do the same thing with College Board.

However, I am excited about what the Carnegie Foundation is doing. That's why we had Diego Arambula [?]... Jorge Aguilar was a panelist as well; he sits on the board for Carnegie. And I think the collaboration with ETS, that's kind of exciting to see what happens there. But the reality is: are we truly measuring what we value? If we can answer that question and then put resources into doing that, I actually think it can drive the right policies, the right budgets, the right decisions downstream to transform education, especially in the United States.

Rachael Maves

I love that. I'm going to wrap us up on that note. My guest today has been Babatunde Ilori, Chief Executive Officer of Parsec Education. Thank you, Babatunde, for joining me today on the Getting Naked with Leaders in Education podcast.

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This transcript was created from the episode's captions and lightly edited for readability. It may contain small errors; please refer to the audio for exact wording.