Rachael Maves: Hello everyone, you are listening to the Rachael Maves podcast and I'm Rachael Maves, your host. Today we are speaking with Bob Eby. Bob is currently the chairman of the Tennessee State Board of Education and serving his second five-year term on the board and second two-year term as chairman. Before being appointed to the state board by Governor Haslam in 2018, he served over 16 years over a 30-year period.

on the local Oak Ridge Board of Education, including as vice chair and chairman. He is a chemical engineer with over 50 years of experience in nuclear technology and holds three patents in the field. He and his wife, Jean, a retired teacher with more than 30 years teaching in public schools, live in Oak Ridge, Tennessee and enjoy their two children and five soon to be six grandchildren. Bob, thank you for joining me today and congratulations on that.

Bob Eby: Thank you, Rachael. We're looking forward to it.

Rachael Maves: How exciting. So really quickly before we get into our questions, what's the makeup of the grandchildren? Boys, girls, half and half.

Bob Eby: Currently we have three boys and we'll have three girls. The last one coming will be a girl. So we have three boys, two girls now, and we'll have three and three.

Rachael Maves: that's so sweet. I love that. Well, congratulations again. So I'm excited because I'm pretty sure you're the first state board member that I've had on the podcast, which is super exciting. And I'd love if you could just share a little bit with our listeners, one, how you ended up on the State Board of Education, but then maybe even also like the role and purpose of the state board in Tennessee.

Bob Eby: Sure.

Well as you had mentioned that I was on the local board of education for 16 years over a 30 year period beginning in 1985. was almost I got elected four different times I would get on and then first time we got moved out to California so I had to resign. Came back in 1991 decided to run again. One was elected chairman of the local board of education then the company asked me to leave to start another company a subsidiary so

I wanted to give it all the proper time to do it. So I decided I couldn't be on the local board. So after that four year term, I went off and then about 15 years later, I said, Hey, I want to get back on the local board. So in 2009, I was reelected and then served until 2018. When at that point, Governor Haslam asked me to be on the state board. One thing I'm on the local board at Oak Ridge, Tennessee Oak Ridge.

known for the Manhattan Project, so it's a highly educated town. And serving on the local board, you're a part of the Tennessee School Board Association. And so I would go across the state and learn about other schools within the state and saw a wide disparity of offerings across the state. And so I got to thinking when I was raised, I was raised in a very rural area.

Western Kentucky and so I recognize the importance of high quality instructional materials and good education systems and it's not because the teachers in the districts don't want to have those districts have options and so I asked made it known I wanted to be on the state board and I was appointed in 2018 to the state board.

Rachael Maves: That's right.

Rachael Maves: Wow. So what initially drew you to the school board? I mean, why join the school board and serve in that part of the community?

Bob Eby: So my wife is a teacher. was always Mrs. Eby's husband. I had two kids in public education. like I say, I was pretty successful early in my career and just wanted to get involved in the community. And I mentioned that when I was raised in Western Kentucky,

Rachael Maves: Yeah.

Yeah.

I think it's very strange.

Bob Eby: I was the smartest kid in my class and when I moved to Oak Ridge I found out I was by far not the smartest kid in the class in the good school system. So I just had a passion for education for students and just wanted to get involved in that.

Rachael Maves: Yeah. I love that. So tell me a little bit more about, well, especially for our listeners, the makeup of the state board in Tennessee.

Bob Eby: But we have 10 members on the state board. have nine representing each of the nine congressional districts. So there's nine congressional districts in Tennessee. Our 10th member is a student member. In fact, we're one of only four states, I think, in the country where the student member has a full vote. And that's very important for us. student member

Rachael Maves: Yes.

Rachael Maves: Mm-hmm.

Bob Eby: I say they're like EF Hutton when they speak, listen because they have a perspective that the rest of us don't have. And our board is made up of, like I I'm an engineer. By law, we have to have one member who is a current teacher, educator.

Rachael Maves: Yeah.

Bob Eby: The lady we have there, Chrissy McInturface up in Upper East Tennessee. We have attorneys, we have an entrepreneur, we have tool in real estate. And so our board's appointment is for a five year term.

Rachael Maves: Mm-hmm.

Bob Eby: That's so we transcend the gubernatorial election. That way we can stay as apolitical as we can. Plus now we're appointed four of us by the governor, three of us by the lieutenant governor, and three by the speaker of the house. Again, we pride ourselves in being apolitical and doing what's best for the students.

Rachael Maves: That's right, yeah.

Rachael Maves: Yeah, yeah, I really appreciate that makeup in Tennessee because I do think that it helps to create some boundaries and guardrails around that so that it doesn't just swing one way or another. Tell us a little bit about the responsibilities of the State Board and what it is that you guys provide insight, support, and oversight on.

Bob Eby: Sure, one of the most major functions that we have is we set all the standards at K through 12. What a student should know in each one of the grades. We set those standards and it's up to the districts to develop the curriculum on how to meet those standards. And so that gives the control best standpoint. Are you getting any feedback or not? OK.

And so the standards are one of the key things that we do. Teacher licensure is another aspect. So we license all the teachers. One of the biggest challenges we have every board meeting is we also do licensure discipline. So we have to take the discipline on teachers, which we don't like to do. But again, we got to protect the students. Textbooks.

Rachael Maves: Yeah.

Bob Eby: textbooks, determining what are the standard textbooks. We have textbook committee, but then we have final approval that if you look at the state board, the legislature sort of sits at the top. set the laws.

Rachael Maves: Mm-hmm.

Bob Eby: state board does the rules and policies from those laws. We sit between the legislature and the Department of Education and so then it's up to the Department of Education to take the rules and the policies that the state board makes and implement them with the districts and so we sort of sit at the 15,000 foot level of the

Rachael Maves: Yeah.

Rachael Maves: That's right.

Bob Eby: Legislature is at 30,000 foot. We're at the 15,000 foot level, but we work very closely with the Department of Education and with the district.

Rachael Maves: Yeah, so for people that maybe just aren't as familiar with that structure, could you share a little bit about that relationship, that working relationship with the Department of Education and how the State Board and the department work together?

Bob Eby: Sure. Sure.

So again, the state board, have 10 members. We have a staff at Nashville. Our staff in Nashville is about 18 people. We have an executive director. Dr. Sarah Morrison is our executive director. And so they work for the state board. And again, we set the rules and the policies. They do a lot of leg work. And they are past educator experience. So they have a lot of professional experience that we on the state board don't have.

Then within the Department of Education, of course, it's run by the Commissioner of Education who's appointed by the governor. They have a staff of about 450 people. So, but we communicate with them almost daily and again, developing the rules and the policies for the districts to implement. So it's an excellent working relationship.

Lizette Reynolds is the Commissioner of Education. We have the highest regard for her. It's just a great working relationship that we have with the department. And bringing what's best for our students. That's all of our focus. And that's the focus of each one of our board members. What is best for our students?

Rachael Maves: Yeah, yeah, that, you know, I will say when I came to Tennessee, that was just so apparent. The one was the collaboration and that true, I would say, desire to partner together with that vision in mind that this is about the kids and we need to be able to do that in collaboration if we're going to serve them well. So I appreciated that,

So tell me a little bit from your lens because you're bringing an interesting perspective from the state board. What keeps you up at night as you think about our current educational context and landscape? What are those things that really weigh heavy on you?

Bob Eby: That's a good question. There's a few things in particular, I would say first and foremost is AI in education. You know, if you look at what's happened over the last year, particularly in artificial intelligence, and we know that it's here to stay, we have to embrace it. How can we do it effectively and efficiently and ethically for our students?

Rachael Maves: rate.

Rachael Maves: Yeah.

Bob Eby: We go across the Tennessee has a policy legislature has that every district will have a policy. And when we go across the state and I talked to superintendents, I asked him, said, so what's your policy in AI? It's all over the map. Sumner County and Knox County are doing an outstanding job in developing.

pathways for AI into the school systems, but other districts are afraid and they're not even using it. But then when you ask their students, you know, are you using AI or not, they kind of raise their hand. And so, and so, you know, we've got to, we've got to put together a plan how to effectively use it. I was at a NASB National Association of State Boards of Education Conference last month in Austin, Texas.

Rachael Maves: That's right.

Bob Eby: And before the conference, they had a four-hour session on AI. And it was an eye-opener to me.

the difference across the nation. So North Carolina K through five, they teach their students AI awareness. Six through eight, they have AI literacy and nine through 12 that they do to AI fluency. Illinois, the governor of Illinois has commissioned an AI conference there. And here in Tennessee, we just recently, the governor had his AI council, you know, and talking about what

we can do across Tennessee and implement that. One thing that was really interesting to me at that conference in Austin is a speaker said, when you think of AI, think of H-A-I-H. And the first H is the human. So how do you ask the right questions? What is it that you're trying to accomplish in AI?

Rachael Maves: Mm-hmm.

Rachael Maves: right?

Bob Eby: It's prompt engineering. How you do that? Then you have AI and then you have the second age. The second age again is the human aspect to determine is that information that I'm getting the information I'm looking for. And then right now I think about 20 % of the data still incorrect in AI. So is it right or wrong? So you got to teach the students how to assess that. They talk about critical skills thinking. But the other part of that age is the heart.

Rachael Maves: That's right.

Rachael Maves: Yeah.

Bob Eby: AI doesn't have the heart. And so I thought that was pretty good, H-A-I-H. The other thing about that is the, I think, co-chair for the Governor's Council is a lady named Dr. Lynn Parker. And I heard her this past Friday do a keynote speech. She talked about AI is like a fire. It can either warm your home or it can burn it down.

Rachael Maves: Yeah.

Yeah.

Rachael Maves: That's a good analogy. That's a good picture.

Bob Eby: It is, it really is. And so what we got to do is figure out again, it's here to stay. How can we use it within Tennessee and use it effectively, ethically, and again for the best interest of the students.

Rachael Maves: That's right.

Rachael Maves: Yeah, I really appreciate what you said too of that contrast with the adults and the students in the system, because that's right. what I've seen, and we saw this actually really early on in technology, in education, we were slow to bring that into the classrooms, but the kids were picking it up like this, whether we're going to get it in school or not. then it created unintentionally, I think, this gap between

those who had access within their K-12 education were using it really well, were being guided by the adults, and then could put that into practice immediately when they went into the workforce versus not. And we're seeing some of those same disparities with AI, because to your point, it's not going to go away. This isn't going to be a blip or a fad. It's here to stay. So how do we ensure that we don't create those same gaps, those equity gaps with our kids?

Bob Eby: That's an excellent point. It kind of goes back to what I was saying previously being raised in a rural school in Tennessee. If you look at what's being offered in the more affluent districts versus the rural district, we have to be very sure that all students have access to it and effectively can use it. So that's an excellent point.

Rachael Maves: That's right.

Rachael Maves: Yeah. Yeah. So when you think about AI, the context that we're in right now, making sure that we are looking at and exploring and bringing into that K-12 sector, I think I love that picture. I'm going to steal it, Bob, the H-A-I-H. What are two ways that we can move forward?

Bob Eby: Well, so when I think about moving forward and again, I think about what is best for the students, individual students. And too many times, and we got to be careful about this on AI is that we will group everybody together, okay? And so we need to figure out.

Rachael Maves: Thank you.

Mm-hmm. Yeah.

I'll to you soon.

Rachael Maves: Mm-hmm.

Bob Eby: For one student, well, I'll give you a good example, Knox County in AI, they're developing a program where like for 90 % of their students would get a certain level of AI, all right?

Rachael Maves: Mm-hmm.

Bob Eby: then there's other students who will be more effectively using AI more professionally. And that might be the next 9%. And then the top 1 % of the students will maybe do coding or something like that, developing AI. And so you have to, as you think about that, what can we do? How can we learn? How can we learn to meet the needs of each individual student? And that brings me up to a point.

Rachael Maves: interesting.

Bob Eby: When I became chairman, I wanted to learn how to be the most effective chairman I could. And so I thought about the word learn. And I thought about the letters of learn and first letter L. What do you do first? You listen first. How do you listen? E, engage. And the third letter A, act. Act only after you've engaged and listened. Then R, R, you respect. Even though you don't have the same opinions as others.

Rachael Maves: and it's a good situation.

Rachael Maves: Mm.

Bob Eby: you respect the other opinions. And if you listen by engagement and act and respect, then I have a little en-cubed. The first is that allows you to negotiate and navigate through the process, and then you can nurture the students. So if we go back to how we meet the individual needs of students,

Rachael Maves: Mm-hmm.

Rachael Maves: .

Rachael Maves: Yeah.

Bob Eby: then if we go through those steps, then we can nurture the students. And so for AI, as you're thinking about that, it is so broad. What does this student need over here versus what does this student need over here? I'll give you an example. Talking about AI, Gallup Po said that a teacher can gain six weeks of teaching time by using AI effectively.

Rachael Maves: Yeah, that's true. Yeah.

Yeah.

Rachael Maves: Mm.

Bob Eby: And one way to do that is with tutoring. Teacher gives Johnny gives a test, a math test. Johnny misses a division problem. Mary misses a multiplication problem and Sydney really aces it out. Now that teacher is responsible for teaching Johnny division, responsible for teaching Mary multiplication and responsible for giving

Rachael Maves: Mm-hmm.

Bob Eby: Sydney, the best education they can give them. How can you do that? Well, with AI tutoring to develop a tutoring for each one individually, that saves time for those teachers. So, yeah, individually, what is it that we can do individually for each student?

Rachael Maves: Yeah.

Rachael Maves: Yeah. Yeah, you the two things that you hit on Bob and one I hadn't thought of before. I'm going to have to look up Knoxville's model. That's the first I've heard of that. And that makes so much sense to me because you know, you're right. There's the base user, which I would probably put myself in that class. You know, I found some really great efficiencies. I've worked it into everyday life.

Bob Eby: you

Rachael Maves: But I am not ever gonna be that back end coder. Like I have no draw or interest for me. I wanna just be able to use it and nail it effectively. But we do need those people that that is something that's really exciting for them and being able to create those pathways. I haven't heard of that structure yet in the K-12 model. That's pretty interesting.

Bob Eby: Yeah, John Rice, who is a Superintendent for Knox County Schools, was explaining that and it seemed really neat and a good way to do it. One of the other challenges this brings up, though, is. How do you find time to teach?

Rachael Maves: Yeah. Yeah.

Bob Eby: you know, AI in a full school day. And so you talk about what, you know, what are things that keep me up at night or what can we do to move forward? One thing I'm looking at or we've done in Tennessee is to say, look at graduation requirements. Can we open up more options?

Rachael Maves: Yeah.

Rachael Maves: Yeah. Yeah.

Bob Eby: for a student and here's two examples of what we did. Last year we had a requirement that every student had to take four credits of math, which I agree with, but you had to have math all four years of your high school, whether you already had your four credits or not, you still had to take math. So we changed and we said you only have to take math three years if you have your four credits. Well, right now I'm looking at world language.

Rachael Maves: Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Rachael Maves: Yeah.

Bob Eby: We have a requirement you have to take two credits of world language to graduate from high school. What if we change that to one credit and then allow that other credit to be an option? They could have another credit in world language. Right now our requirement says you have to have two credits of the same world language.

Rachael Maves: Bye.

Bob Eby: What if you allowed them to take one in Spanish and one in Russian or something like that? Or what if in Tennessee, you're a budding songwriter and you want to take music theory? Or you're a STEM student and you want to do robotics or something like that? Turns out that of the 50 states, 26 states do not require world language as a graduating requirement.

Rachael Maves: Mmm.

Rachael Maves: interesting.

Bob Eby: Of the other 24 states, 17 give options.

Rachael Maves: Mmm.

Bob Eby: So again, if you think about how can we improve our education process now, I'm not saying take more language out of the out of the school system. Far from it. My four of my grandkids are 50 % Hispanic, Mexican, and they're being raised bilingual. And I think that's great. And for them, that's good. But is that for every individual student? And so that's that's what we're looking at is how can we meet the needs

Rachael Maves: Okay.

Rachael Maves: Yeah.

Bob Eby: of each individual student.

Rachael Maves: Yeah, yeah, I do think that what I haven't seen it fully unlocked yet. I am confident that that is where we will get with AI eventually, but keeping the human in the loop because right now, let me back up that.

hitting differentiated instruction in the classroom. What you brought up, I think, the the we know by from the research that it is what improves outcomes for students. And it is the hardest thing to do in the classroom, especially when you have 30 plus kids that you're trying to teach. So you have some that are just whipping through that curriculum, the majority that you can keep with you. And then the others just need a little bit more time and scaffolding.

So I do see, I haven't seen anything yet that I feel like, man, that is nailing it. Right now, it seems to me, unless you've seen something different, Bob, I'd love your thoughts, but it seems to me it's either fully reliant on AI to do it, platforms that it's like, okay, here you go, and the teacher's actually very removed.

Or it's just the teacher trying to do it versus what is that middle ground look like where the teacher is still at the heart of the work that we're doing, but can leverage the tools in a way that is efficient, utilizes class time really well, but there's still that human connection. And I haven't seen that quite yet.

Bob Eby: No, I think you hit the nail on the head. That's what we've got to work toward. And I'm not sure that anybody's there across the country at this point in time. But I know that in Tennessee, we're looking at what's going on across the districts, across the country, and trying to figure out the best way that we can do exactly what you're talking about. And because of that, I don't think it's going to take us some time. mean, clearly, it's going to take time. We want to do it right.

Rachael Maves: Yeah.

Rachael Maves: Yeah. Yeah.

Bob Eby: Unfortunately, with AI, it's moving so fast, so rapidly, we need to get rid of it. I think you'll see in the next year, I say we're looking at some options right now. I think you'll see a lot of activity in the next year on AI in Tennessee. And I think it'll all be in the direction that you're talking about as a framework of how it can be used by the teachers.

Rachael Maves: Yeah, thanks. That's so true.

Rachael Maves: That's right.

Bob Eby: to tutor, to help the teachers do a better job of what they're doing, to provide them more time to be more effective. So again, we meet the needs of each individual student.

Rachael Maves: Yeah. So this brings us to our last question, Bob. What question in education are we not asking that we should be?

Bob Eby: So one area I would say has to do with the integration of pre-K through high school through the workforce. P20, okay, it's common thing is P20. Again, going back to the specific needs. Too often I think we silo ourselves in the...

Rachael Maves: Yes.

Bob Eby: pre-K and then we, know, then post-secondary and in the workforce. But we've got to, our mission on the state board, our mission in Tennessee, if the state board is to prepare students for post-secondary success. So how do we know that we're doing that if we don't know we're meeting the needs of the workforce?

Rachael Maves: Yeah, that's right.

Bob Eby: Governor Lee just, he wants to make Tennessee the nuclear state of the country. And all my background is in the nuclear engineering aspects of it. So I'm delighted to see that. In fact,

Rachael Maves: I was gonna say, I bet that feeds your soul a little bit. Like, yes, yes!

Bob Eby: Absolutely, absolutely. In fact, in the last couple of years, $18 billion worth of investment is coming into the Oak Ridge area in that area. But are we meeting the needs of those students to do that? Now there's.

Rachael Maves: Yeah. Yeah.

Bob Eby: data that exists, longitudinal data, but being able to get that data to see that is a challenge that we have. And so we, I think, have to ask ourselves, how can we better integrate beginning, you know,

In the early elementary grades, that's when you want to show kids what career opportunities there are for them out there so they can start thinking about them and then using our high school and beyond plans, etc. Guidance counselors, you know, again, what what is of interest to that individual student? To meet the workforce and are we meeting that workforce? I think that's a real area that we've got to continue to look at is get that data and work with the workforce development.

Rachael Maves: Yeah, I love that Bob. I'm sure you know this, but when I was at the department, that was one of the projects that I was overseeing and man, it is a lift. I will tell you that, but such an important work to focus on. I love that. Well, thank you for your time today, Bob. I really appreciate the conversation and just catching up and reconnecting with you.

Bob Eby: Absolutely. Well, thank you. And thank you for what you're doing. And again, as long as we all stay focused on what's best for each individual student, we'll get there.

Rachael Maves: Yeah, that's right. All right, everyone, as the new year dawns, we at PARSEC are here to support you and your teams. We have a variety of free resources on our website built to support your mid-year LCAP or strategic plan updates, climate and culture surveys, and your budget planning for the 26-27 school year. Check out what we have at www.parseceducation.com slash resources.

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This transcript was created from the episode's captions and lightly edited for readability. It may contain small errors; please refer to the audio for exact wording.